a 15 year old accused of knifing a 9 year ols to death

[Michael Rolls]

what on earth are we coming to?

[klondike]

Happened years back with James Venables. They were younger though.

[GrannyMac]

This is such a very sad situation. The poor girl, and her family. 

[JBR]

The problem is that a 15 year old is below the age of responsibility, I assume, so what can they do?
I know what I would do, of course, but then I'd be breaking the law.
Surely there is some form of punishment and/or restriction.

[Scrumpy]

Unfortunately killing by youngsters is regularly in the news..
 The most recent one that sticks in my mind is the two (kids) who stabbed an old man walking his dog in a park near his home.. The poor man and his poor confused pet..

They are evil and should be given a fatal injection..
I don't believe any amount of (chat) sessions can penetrate and change their wicked minds..
Yet they are so crafty they can make their (experienced )
medical team believe that they are changed and love the bible..

[Dextrous63]

There's something wrong in the country.

[JBR]

Unfortunately killing by youngsters is regularly in the news..
 The most recent one that sticks in my mind is the two (kids) who stabbed an old man walking his dog in a park near his home.. The poor man and his poor confused pet..

They are evil and should be given a fatal injection..
I don't believe any amount of (chat) sessions can penetrate and change their wicked minds..
Yet they are so crafty they can make their (experienced )
medical team believe that they are changed and love the bible..

I agree.  I have always believed in 'a life for a life'.  Unfortunately, attempting to get such a thing passed is difficult enough for an adult.  For a 15-year old it must be even more difficult.

My principles still say, however, that a life for a life if murder is proved beyond any possible doubt, and even a 15-year old must know that killing a person intentionally is one of the worst things anyone could do...

...unless the victim is TwoTier Keir, of course.

[klondike]

The problem is that a 15 year old is below the age of responsibility

No - that's 10 iirc. Under 18s do get softer treatment but at 15 not all that much softer I hope

[Dextrous63]

There is surely a reasonable argument for certain crimes to have no age limit allowance.

[Raven]

This protection for the young needs to be looked at again. It was made a long time ago when the young were very different from today's young, they know they're protected. Time that changed.

[Ashy]

The people who would do the looking-at are almost guaranteed to be the liberal chattering type who would turn the other cheek and got us into this mess in the first place. 

[JBR]

I have an image of a graph showing murder numbers since hanging ended.
Unfortunately, I can't post it here for some reason.

[Michael Rolls]

Did cases go up or down?

[klondike]

I have an image of a graph showing murder numbers since hanging ended.
Unfortunately, I can't post it here for some reason.

ONS provide the figures - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/appendixtableshomicideinenglandandwales

Libre Office makes a pigs ear of the XLS they link to so I asked AI to translate...

To verify these numbers with definitive official sources, you should look for the ONS "Appendix Tables." These are the raw Excel sheets they release alongside their annual reports.

The most definitive table for your request is Table 1 of the Homicide Appendix, which lists every year from 1960 to 2024.

The Direct ONS Link
You can find the most recent dataset here:

ONS: Appendix tables: homicide in England and Wales

Once you are on that page:

Download the .xlsx file (usually named something like homicideinenglandandwalesappendixtables...).

Open the tab labeled Table 1.

Column B shows the number of homicides; Column C shows the "Currently recorded" count; and the ONS usually provides a separate "per million" rate column or the population data to calculate it.

Other Definitive Search Terms
If the link ever breaks, these search terms in Google will take you straight to the latest official government PDFs or Excel files:

"Homicide in England and Wales" ONS appendix tables

"Table 1" homicide offences initially recorded current classification ONS

"Homicide Index" Home Office long-term trends

A Comparison Check (1950 vs. Now)
If you want to cross-reference the 1950 data specifically (which is older than the ONS's standard digital table starting in 1960), you can find it in the House of Commons Library research briefing:

Source: Homicide Statistics - UK Parliament (PDF)

Refer to: Page 12, "Table 1". It lists the years from the late 1800s to today. It shows that in 1950, there were 346 homicides. With a population then of roughly 43.8 million, that confirms the 1 in 126,500 risk I mentioned.

By using these ONS Excel sheets and Parliamentary briefings, you are looking at the exact same raw data used by the UK government for policy making.


That was given when I asked for the source of this which I still can't actually verify as I don't have Excel....

Year      Total      Per million
1950      346      7.9
1960      282      6.2
1970      393      8
1980      528      10.7
1990      609      11.9
2002/03 1,047*  17.9
2014/15 504      8.9
2023/24 570      9.5 

*Note: The 2003 peak includes 173 historic murders by Harold Shipman recorded that year

Another source - 

  maybe that is where you saw the graph (I haven't looked)

[muddy]

No - that's 10 iirc. Under 18s do get softer treatment but at 15 not all that much softer I hope

Correct Criminal responsibility in England  is 10 in Scotland it's 8.