Pensioners forum LetsChat

This thread is where you can post things where the challenge is not to punch a hole through your screen.

My starter is this clip, but the challenge starts at the 9 minute point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65iwnI2hjAA

Feel free to add to it.

You couldn't make it up..
Now the Chinese are telling us what to do in our country..
And playing the racist card... Even our law are frightened to say anything..
  'You can't touch her.. you are not of her age'   :nooo:

In this country, the copyright in a photograph belongs to the photographer.

This fella is a regular piano player at the station, what were flag waving Chinese people there for  ?
I can only think they were afraid bosses back in China would see them enjoying western music. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/DywHy3wZ/Valdo-Calocane.webp)


Valdo Calocane, who killed three people in Nottingham last year, has had his not guilty plea accepted on the grounds of 'diminished responsibility due to mental illness', instead pleading guilty to manslaughter.

Quote from: Scrumpy on January 23, 2024, 09:22:38 AMYou couldn't make it up..
Now the Chinese are telling us what to do in our country..
And playing the racist card... Even our law are frightened to say anything..
  'You can't touch her.. you are not of her age'  :nooo:

It's true that she is asking the bloke to stop playing, but at least she seems to be asking nicely with a smile on her face, rather than waving a machete at him!

On the other hand, it could be that now that we have shown ourselves to be a very weak country, everyone and their son expects to tell us what to do.
Now whose fault is that?

January 23, 2024, 06:38:42 PM

Quote from: Alex on January 23, 2024, 02:19:52 PM(https://i.postimg.cc/DywHy3wZ/Valdo-Calocane.webp)


Valdo Calocane, who killed three people in Nottingham last year, has had his not guilty plea accepted on the grounds of 'diminished responsibility due to mental illness', instead pleading guilty to manslaughter.

Does anyone know what his sentence will be?
I think I can guess.

I've long thought that people with paranoid schizophrenia, which can never be cured, should be put down.

Humanely of course.

January 24, 2024, 08:25:27 AM
The piano that upset the Chinese when it was being played, has now been cordoned off & has security guards to stop anyone from playing it.

We are a weak country that allow others to dictate to us.. When did all this happen !!  
Bloody Chinese telling us that playing a piano in public and recording it is wrong..

And as for that killer Valdo Calocane pleading not guilty to murder but guilty of manslaughter because of  diminished responsibility  is the usual 'get out' plea..
He went out with a knife.. I don't go out with a knife !! He was looking for a target..
Whether it is murder or manslaughter the sentence will be the same.. In a couple of years time he would have fooled the medical team assessing him and start reading the bible..

We seem to be housing other peoples crap..

and too much of it

January 24, 2024, 11:50:30 AM
Actually, I don't think that we are are weak country - we just have had a succession of hopeless, weak governments and our imposed social set up allows to wierdoes to order us about

Quote from: Diasi on January 24, 2024, 08:22:54 AMThe piano that upset the Chinese when it was being played, has now been cordoned off & has security guards to stop anyone from playing it.

Just one more example of why I feel that 'our country' is no longer that.
It seems that the powers that be tend to support anyone who complains about something on the proviso that they are not English.

When I watch old films set in the war years, and see how we British behaved then, I give up all hope for the future seeing how we behave now.

Even worse, I see no signs of us ever going back to the country we once were.

Quote from: Diasi on January 24, 2024, 08:22:54 AMJanuary 24, 2024, 08:25:27 AM

The piano that upset the Chinese when it was being played, has now been cordoned off & has security guards to stop anyone from playing it.

No piano playing during Covid either, looks like the Chinese have struck again  :smiley:

Quote from: Alex on January 24, 2024, 01:58:09 PMNo piano playing during Covid either, looks like the Chinese have struck again  :smiley:

🤣🤣🤣

Quote from: Diasi on January 24, 2024, 08:22:54 AMI've long thought that people with paranoid schizophrenia, which can never be cured, should be put down.

Humanely of course.

I've read this man was " assessed "  before being allowed to roam freely, got that wrong didn't they !! Just wondering if the same people have "assessed" that he wasn't fit to face a murder charge ?

Quote from: Alex on January 25, 2024, 10:39:21 AMI've read this man was " assessed "  before being allowed to roam freely, got that wrong didn't they !! Just wondering if the same people have "assessed" that he wasn't fit to face a murder charge ?

I reckon that 'the voices told me to do it' is a load of rubbish that's used as an excuse.

I challenge any psychiatrist to prove that they've heard the voices in another person's head.

Already the idiots are asking the Judge not to impose a whole life sentence.

Well there you go, a cushty hospital order where he'll have his own en-suite room & staff to attend to all his needs.

Unbloodybelievable  :sad:

Quote from: Diasi on January 25, 2024, 11:54:40 AMI reckon that 'the voices told me to do it' is a load of rubbish that's used as an excuse.

I challenge any psychiatrist to prove that they've heard the voices in another persons head.

Already the idiots are asking the Judge not to impose a whole life sentence.

I have been wondering why the courts no longer try to punish criminals, especially like this waste of space.
Is it because the prisons are so full they can't find anywhere to put them, or is it that they think letting them off with a warning, or even talking nicely to them, will change them into good, law-abiding citizens?

If people are proven to be a danger to society they should be put to sleep..
It seems that this man is the one in control.. not the psychiatrists..
He was meant to be picked up by the police for a (no show).. But they were too busy doing more important things I guess..

He will be fed.. kept warm.. have medical treatment .. Until the day comes when he is free , allowing him to kill again.. He plays the system like a fiddle..

But they were too busy doing more important things I guess..

Well Twitter don't ploice itself does it? Might be some misgendering going on that needs a squad car or two dispatching to confront the perp.

I would but the sod down - look how much taxpayers' money would be saved

Quote from: Michael Rolls on January 25, 2024, 05:59:47 PMI would but the sod down - look how much taxpayers' money would be saved

I have said many times, I'm sure, both here and 'elsewhere' that I have always been in favour of hanging for murder.  Accidental or incidental manslaughter might warrant lesser sentences.

It achieves several things:
- unnecessary support of the murderer throughout his entire sentence
- the possibility of escape
- encouragement and passing on tips to other inmates
- causing trouble and attacks during incarceration, and most importantly
- a visible deterrent to others.

This black waste-of-space knew exactly what he was doing & planned it as he travelled from London, where he got the knives, to Nottingham where he'd chosen to commit these offences.

Probably not many people picked up on the glaring mistake, made by the CPS, on the news reports which stated he was charged with manslaughter for the murders but charged with attempted murder for the people he injured.

Therefore the CPS can't have it both ways.

Quote from: Diasi on January 25, 2024, 07:34:28 PMThis black waste-of-space knew exactly what he was doing & planned it as he travelled from London, where he got the knives, to Nottingham where he'd chosen to commit these offences.

Probably not many people picked up on the glaring mistake, made by the CPS, on the news reports which stated he was charged with manslaughter for the murders but charged with attempted murder for the people he injured.

Therefore the CPS can't have it both ways.

Ooooh!  He said "black".    Racist!  Racist!  Racist!    😏

Quote from: JBR on January 25, 2024, 07:42:15 PMOoooh!  He said "black".    Racist!  Racist!  Racist!    😏

:grin:

My defence is that I can't call him a white waste-of-space as he isn't white.

I'm like the piano player who's racist for calling some people from China, Chinese. Lol

Quote from: Diasi on January 25, 2024, 07:48:18 PM:grin:

My defence is that I can't call him a white waste-of-space as he isn't white.

I'm like the piano player who's racist for calling some people from China, Chinese. Lol

I hope you realise that I was intentionally poking fun at the 'racial equality people' who bombard us with criticisms of such words which I posted!  😁

Quote from: JBR on January 25, 2024, 09:52:59 PMI hope you realise that I was intentionally poking fun at the 'racial equality people' who bombard us with criticisms of such words which I posted!  😁

Yes, my reply was in the same vein,  :grin: but, as a paying member of the Free Speech Union, it did raise the point about how careful we have to be about what we say in this once free country.

Anyway, thank goodness the Yanks have still got the bottle to do what needs to be done.

http://tinyurl.com/3vny47hs

We need Cass to clarify, but there may be a chink in that defence Diasi😬

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 26, 2024, 08:41:19 AMWe need Cass to clarify, but there may be a chink in that defence Diasi😬

Lol, you have no idea how I struggled not to slip that one into my original post.

In fact that was my challenge of the day.  :grin: :grin: :grin:

P.S. Maybe Cassandra would give a considered opinion on whether or not it's still ok to use the term 'a chink in the amour' to describe a defect.

Or a chink of light where a curtain or blinds have a slight gap. 

Our pupils are told to call them "coloured people".

Does that apply to flying saucer folk too? I'm reliably informed that they a green. Usually.

Quote from: ansu on January 26, 2024, 09:44:57 AMOur pupils are told to call them "coloured people".

You can't call a black person coloured as black is a shade, not a colour, which is why blacks, pre political correctness, were often called 'Shady'.

Whites can't be called coloured as white is a shade which is why we were often called 'Whitey'.

Chinese can be called coloured as yellow is a colour.  :grin:

Quote from: ansu on January 26, 2024, 09:44:57 AMOur pupils are told to call them "coloured people".

Well yes, but I'm a coloured person.  I'm coloured pink!
I have always thought that it's rather silly.  'Black' is not a naughty word.  They use that same word themselves.

January 26, 2024, 12:06:22 PM

Quote from: Diasi on January 26, 2024, 08:28:05 AMYes, my reply was in the same vein,  :grin: but, as a paying member of the Free Speech Union, it did raise the point about how careful we have to be about what we say in this once free country.

Anyway, thank goodness the Yanks have still got the bottle to do what needs to be done.

http://tinyurl.com/3vny47hs

I have mentioned before that I believe that the only fair punishment for murder is death.  If we want to be nice and civilised about it, I think a quick injection into a blood vessel - exactly as was done to our cats when they have become very ill - is quick and painless (or I understand that it is).  Our cats have just faded away peacefully without any stress.

On the other hand, is such a pleasant death appropriate?  If a murderer has caused death with a great deal of pain, shouldn't he suffer exactly the same?
Oh dear, no!  We must show that we are more civilised than them!  🙄

Quote from: Diasi on January 26, 2024, 11:55:17 AMChinese can be called coloured as yellow is a colour.  :grin:

Only this guy and his family are really yellow though...

(https://letschat.club/avatars/upload/avatar_64_1659992945.png)

Quote from: JBR on January 26, 2024, 12:01:02 PMWell yes, but I'm a coloured person.  I'm coloured pink!
I have always thought that it's rather silly.  'Black' is not a naughty word.  They use that same word themselves.

January 26, 2024, 12:06:22 PMI have mentioned before that I believe that the only fair punishment for murder is death.  If we want to be nice and civilised about it, I think a quick injection into a blood vessel - exactly as was done to our cats when they have become very ill - is quick and painless (or I understand that it is).  Our cats have just faded away peacefully without any stress.

On the other hand, is such a pleasant death appropriate?  If a murderer has caused death with a great deal of pain, shouldn't he suffer exactly the same?
Oh dear, no!  We must show that we are more civilised than them!  🙄

The anti-death penalty morons in the USA talk a load of deliberate rubbish to try & get the executions stopped.

E.g. a person will twitch in the electric chair long after they are dead, a frog's leg will twitch if a voltage is sent through the muscle.

Nitrogen is being used in Switzerland as a method of assisted suicide. 

I'm surprised that helium isn't being used as it's supposed to be an increasingly popular way of committing suicide due to it not being very traumatic.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 26, 2024, 01:59:10 PMI'm surprised that helium isn't being used as it's supposed to be an increasingly popular way of committing suicide due to it not being very traumatic.

Perhaps the production of helium is more expensive that nitrogen!

No, I'd rather go with whatever cats use.  They certainly seem to just drift off.  No twitching, etc.

A general anaesthetic is considered fine for operations. If instead of having bits cut and repaired their throat was cut the "patient" would be none the wiser.

One of the problems is that the producers of the various gases and injectables won't supply the US authorities who adaopted their various odd methods of execution on supposed humanitarian grounds. I'd doubt that rope makers or sellers of bullets would be so squeamish. If they want to execute and are having problems they need to go low tech and change their laws to allow the older methods.

January 26, 2024, 02:41:35 PM

Quote from: JBR on January 26, 2024, 02:16:41 PMNo, I'd rather go with whatever cats use.  They certainly seem to just drift off.  No twitching, etc.

They use sedatives followed by a high dose of a barbiturate to euthenase animals. It's why vets get broken into by junkies.

Quote from: klondike on January 26, 2024, 02:37:28 PMA general anaesthetic is considered fine for operations. If instead of having bits cut and repaired their throat was cut the "patient" would be none the wiser.

One of the problems is that the producers of the various gases and injectables won't supply the US authorities who adaopted their various odd methods of execution on supposed humanitarian grounds. I'd doubt that rope makers or sellers of bullets would be so squeamish. If they want to execute and are having problems they need to go low tech and change their laws to allow the older methods.

January 26, 2024, 02:41:35 PMThey use sedatives followed by a high dose of a barbiturate to euthenase animals. It's why vets get broken into by junkies.

Absolutely.  I still believe that hanging by the neck until dead is perfectly acceptable and usually instant death if done properly.

I didn't know that information about vets.  Thanks.  As for murderers, I think I'd safe the cost of any sedatives.

I knew it was the case but then checked Google as I often thought I've known lots of things and found I didn't if you are interested it will tell you the specific drug used.

Quote from: JBR on January 26, 2024, 02:16:41 PMPerhaps the production of helium is more expensive that nitrogen!

No, I'd rather go with whatever cats use.  They certainly seem to just drift off.  No twitching, etc.

Do they play a cd of the turnips big ideas?  That'd make all known living organisms pass out and away somewhat effectively?

Why do you call Azz the turnip? I can't see any connection and BTW, I love mashed turnip n butter.  :busted:

You knew exactly who he meant though....

Which other vegetative matter would you prefer I call the little swede?

Google "turnip pejorative" and there'll be lots of explanations.  Take your pick.

Quote from: JBR on January 26, 2024, 12:01:02 PMWell yes, but I'm a coloured person.  I'm coloured pink!
I have always thought that it's rather silly.  'Black' is not a naughty word.  They use that same word themselves.

January 26, 2024, 12:06:22 PMI have mentioned before that I believe that the only fair punishment for murder is death.  If we want to be nice and civilised about it, I think a quick injection into a blood vessel - exactly as was done to our cats when they have become very ill - is quick and painless (or I understand that it is).  Our cats have just faded away peacefully without any stress.

On the other hand, is such a pleasant death appropriate?  If a murderer has caused death with a great deal of pain, shouldn't he suffer exactly the same?
Oh dear, no!  We must show that we are more civilised than them!  🙄

Against much Public opinion I believe the sentence passed down on Calocane, by Justice Turner  was entirely correct. Nottingham Crown Court heard he had previously been detained in hospital four times under mental health laws and had a history of refusing his medication.

Calocane was also arrested for assaulting a police officer in September 2021, involved in criminal damage and once visited MI5 headquarters to ask them to stop "controlling him".

The Judge will also have had other reports. As a sentencer he had three ways to go , firstly the Mental Health Act section 41, the one he selected which enabled him to pass an 'indeterminate' sentence but was as his Lordship stated in his opening address 'likely to result in you being held in a high security hospital for the rest of your life. Being subject to a section 41 order also gives the Justice Secretary or a first tier tribunal, the power to block his release on the grounds that he is assessed to still be a risk to the public.

He could have selected to sentence under section 45(a) of the same act. Here he could prescribe a term in the same high security prison and then were (Calocane) considered to be 'cured' at any time thereafter to serve the remainder of his sentence in an ordinary prison. These occurrences are known as 'Hybrid Orders'. An important difference as the route the judge selected gives the convicted far less 'wiggle' room for freedom. He chose to avoid section 37, of the Mental Health Act 1983 too. This entitles an offender to a review of their mental health on each three year anniversary, where release is achievable if 'doctors' assess that they have recovered and are of sound mind.

Turner thoughtfully I felt bypassed that route to relief in sentence and passed the responsibility for future freedom to this killer far further up the chain of authority. Politicians don't like the nakedness created by not having any hacks to blame or lean on and generally tend to play safe and keep the locks shut.

Clearly Calocane was mentally incapable as his previous history shows. Look at it from the other end of the lens. Could 'Murder' be proven when some of the accused mental health background exists within Public view. I believe not, so therefore this despicable elemental needed to be locked away for good.

What is angering some is that the term murder is not referred to in sentencing, where the word 'killings' has been utilised and somewhere the charge has been downgraded to 'manslaughter' ?

I have in the past many times referred to 'mens rea'  for those who are not everyday Latin users this means  "the act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty".

It would have been 'unsafe' to determine 'Murder' in this case therefore. A judge's prime value is to hear the case and then sentence the accused (if found guilty) to  a proportionate punishment, but must protect the public in cases involving loss of life (no matter how caused) as a prime consideration.

Justic Turner was right, right and right therefore on all counts, in my opinion and his 'summing up' before sentence was balanced and rationally delivered.

So the debate is would sentencing a Murder charge have collapsed under the disclosure of medical evidence from the defence - Unquestionably yes, establishing 'mens rea' axiomatically as a corollary. This reality, saved a lot of money for lawyers (precociously supported on this forum), having a second go at Manslaughter, which is what correctly was enacted.

Disappointingly for the 'off with his head' brigade and the family who wanted this deranged lunatic branded as an outright slayer ~ sensibility 'within the terms of the law as written' prevailed.

Sometimes the end does justify the means ...

Obviously, I fully accept your explanation, Cass.
I have no legal training so I can understand from what you say, which of course I accept as completely valid, that the judge really had no choice in the matter.

As long as the animal is put away for life, I suppose that will have to do.  At least he will be well away from civilisation which is the important thing.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying the matter.  Should Marge ever ask me about this, I shall know exactly what to tell her (though I'll have to pretend that I'm not reading it from here)!

Thanks for the explanation Cass.  I had no problem with the sentence, it made sense given the perpetrator's state of mind. What I have a problem with is his not being in a psych hospital prior to these horrific killings.  

Thanks for making that clearer Cass.   I assume this person will arrive up here at Ashworth Hospital, all the bad beggars end up here.  One good thing nobody has ever escaped from Ashworth.

Quote from: GrannyMac on January 26, 2024, 08:21:12 PMThanks for the explanation Cass.  I had no problem with the sentence, it made sense given the perpetrator's state of mind. What I have a problem with is his not being in a psych hospital prior to these horrific killings. 

I nearly added that as a 'rider', therein lies the true crime, somewhere in between woke and civil service inertia.

January 26, 2024, 08:59:28 PM

Quote from: Alex on January 26, 2024, 08:37:16 PMThanks for making that clearer Cass.   I assume this person will arrive up here at Ashworth Hospital, all the bad beggars end up here.  One good thing nobody has ever escaped from Ashworth.

I lost a school friend in 1956 to a callous murderer in similar circumstances. I lived along a different road with a third friend which was all that saved me/us. We were 'Cub's - returning home from a bring & buy sale in Ilford. Malcolm Lockwood was the 11 year old's name ...

Thanks Cass.  As always, a clear explanation of how courts have to work within the constraints of the available laws to the best of its ability and judgement.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 26, 2024, 09:12:28 PMThanks Cass.  As always, a clear explanation of how courts have to work within the constraints of the available laws to the best of its ability and judgement.

It's an excellent clear explanation of laws that aren't fit for purpose & need to be changed.

All this rubbish about not knowing what he was doing is just that, rubbish.

He knew exactly what he was doing as it was meticulously pre-planned, including refusing to take his medication.

The law needs to be changed so that people with severe dangerous mental health issues are euthanised if they fail to comply with the requirement to take their medication or keep committing acts of violence.

But you know as well as I do that the failure/refusal to take one's meds is part of the condition in itself.  Can easily imagine that being thrown into the defence pot.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 08:19:10 AMBut you know as well as I do that the failure/refusal to take one's meds is part of the condition in itself.  Can easily imagine that being thrown into the defence pot.

I disagree with that because at the time the person knows what will happen if they stop taking their medication so they do it with full knowledge of the consequences.

If your assessment is correct & the person doesn't know what will happen if they stop taking their medication then that's an even more compelling reason to have them euthanised.

These nutters are kept alive at the expense of other people's lives.

Luckily there aren't all that many. Far more likely to get killed on the street by a mugger or jihadi these days so no need to worry. Just wear your stab vest and running shoes or don't go out.

Quote from: klondike on January 27, 2024, 08:33:53 AMLuckily there aren't all that many. Far more likely to get killed on the street by a mugger or jihadi these days so no need to worry. Just wear your stab vest and running shoes or don't go out.

But not luckily for the three he killed.

I realise that some people will disagree with euthanising this dangerous nutter but, by default, they're actually saying that the killings of these three people is a price worth paying for keeping him alive.

I'd say top him but we all know it isn't going to happen.

I still maintain that the best option for punishing murderers is the rope.
Most murderers don't have this mental problem as an 'excuse'; they do it because they want to for various reasons: revenge, removing their enemies, etc.
Hanging doesn't require expensive chemicals, expensive electricity, or anything expensive, only a rope and an expert hangman and his time.

If it is known that a person is mentally unstable and has made any such actions or threats, that is when he should be incarcerated in an appropriate place.  Unless the experts are completely certain that he has been 'cured' he should never leave.
If he is then released and kills again, hang him.  He's had his chance.
'A life for a life'.

Diminished Responsibility..
Am I correct in thinking that there are more people on our streets with this problem.. !!
We had village idiots  and the nutter in the next town.. But DR seems to be a disease that is spreading amongst murderers..

Quote from: Diasi on January 27, 2024, 08:22:39 AMI disagree with that because at the time the person knows what will happen if they stop taking their medication so they do it with full knowledge of the consequences.

If your assessment is correct & the person doesn't know what will happen if they stop taking their medication then that's an even more compelling reason to have them euthanised.

These nutters are kept alive at the expense of other people's lives.

No point arguing with me Diasi.  I thing Cass has indicated that anything other than being in complete control of one's faculties it likely to reduce the charge to manskaughter.  That's the way I'm reading it.  Feel free to bluntly correct me if I'm in error.  I've taken my meds, so will be able to take it.😬😉

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 11:35:02 AMNo point arguing with me Diasi.  I thing Cass has indicated that anything other than being in complete control of one's faculties it likely to reduce the charge to manskaughter.  That's the way I'm reading it.  Feel free to bluntly correct me if I'm in error.  I've taken my meds, so will be able to take it.😬😉

I'm not arguing with you & you can see by my reply to Cass that I agree that his explanation of the law is totally correct.

However, Cass has explained the law as it stands but, in my opinion, is not fit for purpose & needs to be changed.

If a person does not have any control over their faculties then yes, by all means call it manslaughter, but the law should be changed to allow for them to be put down to protect the rest of us.

We are in total agreement Diasi.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 01:33:57 PMWe are in total agreement Diasi.

:upvote:

I fully agree that Cass has explained the law as it now stands, but I agree with Diasi that it should be changed for our own protection.
However, two important things must happen first:

The return of the death penalty for murder, as a strong deterrent.  On the news yesterday, they provided figures of the increase in murders since the death penalty was stopped.  It has nearly doubled.

The police should be made to deal with serious crime far more effectively than they have been doing lately.  Some crimes are virtually ignored and what does that do?  It encourages yet more crime, of course.

Although a few years out of date, and without wishing to step on Cass' toes, you might find this a useful overview...

https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 05:52:31 PMAlthough a few years out of date, and without wishing to step on Cass' toes, you might find this a useful overview...

https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/

Well I can't think of a more appropriate sentence than whole life in prison.

As it stands, this black waste-of space got an indefinite hospital order which can be lifted at any time so he could be out at some point on the nod of a couple of gullible dimwit psychiatrists.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 05:52:31 PMAlthough a few years out of date, and without wishing to step on Cass' toes, you might find this a useful overview...

https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/

And we wonder why crime - all crime - is constantly on the increase in this country.

And that enormous number of prisoners who have taken the life of someone else may only serve 16 or so years.
Crime certainly does pay in broken Britain.

Can't the do-gooders, those who make these decisions hoping to reduce serious crime in this country, see why the system does nothing but encourage crime?

300 murderers put away, 300 released per annum.  Seems to be maintaining a certain number of cells rather than meting out justice.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 09:40:15 PM300 murderers put away, 300 released per annum.  Seems to be maintaining a certain number of cells rather than meting out justice.

Well yes, it has been regularly reported on the news that all the prisons are full.  Solutions:
- Stop sending people to prison?
- Make prisons hell-holes - deterrence?
- Halve all prison terms?
- Pay third-world countries to take our prisoners?

Any better suggestions?

A combination of bullet points 2 & 4 seem sensible.  Might even be able to get a good deal from Rwanda if we ever get to sort t'other little matter out.

Adding in the concept of incarceration including physical distance from family and friends sounds like a further deterrent for the pot.  In any case, technology would mitigate the extreme harshness of this.

And then, as luck would have it, that would release around 90,000 beds in uk prisons which could be used to house immigrants while they await a decision.  

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 27, 2024, 10:41:15 PMA combination of bullet points

Why not just stop there...  :grin:

There is that.  But I'd have to agree with JB that a noose is better, for environmental reasons.  Wooden scaffold is renewable, as is hemp rope.  Less blood too!!  

Gunpowder and metal bullets (especially those with mercury filled tops) leave a far bigger carbon footprint.

Greta would be proud of our choice.

They could make prisons a sort of Russian Roulette. Each week a prize draw would pick one prisoner in each jail to be took out the back and shot regardless of crime or sentence.  The longer the sentence the more chance of winning the prize so all quite fair. Would reduce costs.

Could sell tickets. In Texas they could probably charge to be a firing squad member. Bring your own gun.

Hardly green though.

How about turning prison into the Squid Game?  The sole survivor would be promised a flight to freedom.  In reality, this would be thrown from a trebuchet off a cliff to a rocky surface below.

Squid Games.. !!  Spot on..

Meanwhile back in the real world....

Baby killer Lucy Letby 'has a key to her cell' as prison insider describes her cushy new life as 'just like a hotel - except you're surrounded by criminals'

Evil baby killer Lucy Letby has been given a key to her own cell a report has claimed, as a prison insider described her cushy new life on the inside as being like a 'hotel - but you're surrounded by criminals'.

This comes five months after the monster was given a whole life sentence with not chance of parole for the murder of seven newborn babies and attempting to kill six others.

Having the key to her cell means that Letby, 34, can lock herself away from fellow inmates if she feels threatened by them.

It is believed that keys are handed to the residents of category A HMP Bronzefield as a reward for good behaviour on the inside.

The move has caused significant upset for the grieving parents of Letby's victims.

We thought they were throwing away the key, and now we find out that she has her own key,' one parent told The Sunday People.

A prison insider told the paper that the VIP arrangement means Letby can socialise if she wants to, but can also have privacy if she wants.

They said it was 'no different to living in a hotel - but you're surrounded by criminals'.

Letby was previously moved to HMP Bronzefield from Low Newton jail in County Durham.

This comes after baby murderer Letby reportedly 'became prison friends' with two other killers whilst she was held on remand before her trial in August.

Letby was said to have bonded with Michelle Smith, a woman who murdered her own 42-day-old baby, and Shauna Hoare, who helped kill 16-year-old schoolgirl Becky Watts.

A source told The Mirror that the trio of killers had been playing board games together and sat with each other when it came to eating meals.

'They were together 24 hours a day – they were a well-known threesome and were literally never apart,' they said.

Letby, originally from Hereford, was convicted of attacking the babies at Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit in 2015 and 2016.

In September last year it was announced that the serial killer will face a retrial over one count of attempted murder of a newborn baby girl.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13014875/Baby-killer-Lucy-Letby-key-cell-prison-cushy-new-life-hotel-criminals.html

British 'justice':  murderer given private room, free meals and healthcare.
How to encourage crime.

She would have probably had a worse punishment if she had been kept out of prison and everyone knew where she lived.

I an totally, utterly appalled

Quote from: Alex on January 26, 2024, 08:37:16 PMThanks for making that clearer Cass.  I assume this person will arrive up here at Ashworth Hospital, all the bad beggars end up here.  One good thing nobody has ever escaped from Ashworth.

Correct he's going to Ashworth 

Quote from: Diasi on January 27, 2024, 07:02:33 PMWell I can't think of a more appropriate sentence than whole life in prison.

As it stands, this black waste-of space got an indefinite hospital order which can be lifted at any time so he could be out at some point on the nod of a couple of gullible dimwit psychiatrists.

Not quite, as I explained Justice Turner handed down sentencing to Calocane under sections 37 and 41 of The Mental Health Act 2007. Section 37 allows reviews periodically by panels of psychologists etc but the decision for release is made by senior politicians, ie the Home Secretary or his Tribunals, not a 'parole board' of left leaning appeasers.

He was also sentenced under section 41 (as explained). Since the 2007 amendments to the Mental Health Act 1983, 'restriction orders' under section 41 are indefinite. If patients are conditionally discharged from hospital, these restrictions continue under section 42 of the Act.

Again, an "absolute discharge" can only be given by the secretary of state or tribunal.

This outcome is extremely unlikely. Mira Hindley was sentenced to 3 whole life tariffs for murder in April '66. She appealed for release in 1998. The Appeal Court judges upheld the decision by the then Home Secretary Jack Straw that Hindley should stay in prison until she died.

The supremely dangerous lunatic that is Calocane was intelligently sentenced to avoid the advantage to him of never ending reviews by the likes of loopy Lord Longfords, who thought Hindley had transmogrified into the reincarnation of 'Mother Theresa'. Today, such starters for ten could perhaps materialise in left wing Tories, the Lib-dems, most Labour MP's and the entire readership of 'The Guardian' attempting to 'proxy' similar minded people onto the personnel of future 'parole boards' and releasing Calocane to murder anew.

He will serve his term in a high security hospital, like Broadmoor, where Ronnie Kray spent his last days and never escaped in 26 years. The term will very likely be for life in reality, as Justice Turner intended. As I mentioned before no Home Secretary would dare to release him, when it's his neck alone that carries the responsibility for going against the vast majority of citizens, who would I suspect to have preferred the death sentence?

Because of 'mens rea' it could be dangerous to sentence those who commit crimes whilst the balance of the mind is disturbed. Who knows they could recover to full cognisance over time in care? However for cases where DNA and or video evidence, or say multi witnesses places guilt beyond doubt, I would be in favour of returning the death penalty.

Irregardless though in a world where the next Prime Minister (an ex senior lawyer) cannot even define what a woman is ~ the prospects of that materialising are never going to happen ...

Interesting post.

Thanks Cass.  One would have thought that should someone ever fully recover from what led them to kill then they would be in the paradoxical situation of realising that his/her actions were so heinous that he/she wouldn't want to be released.

I.e....only a lunatic would want parole.

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 28, 2024, 05:33:40 PMThanks Cass.  One would have thought that should someone ever fully recover from what led them to kill then they would be in the paradoxical situation of realising that his/her actions were so heinous that he/she wouldn't want to be released.

I.e....only a lunatic would want parole.

Yes I know from Brady's defence (Hindley's fellow Moors assassin) that over the course of time he never wanted release and so didn't appeal. He came to realise he was dangerous so he said. However I can assure you from personal experience many 'old lags' find existing outside the prison regime vety difficult. For instance one of my 'reliable, repeat business clients' once broke into my home and I found him in the kitchen on a Sunday morning cooking my breakfast, having 'broken in' overnight, even my dog knew him well enough to give him a welcome and was sitting on his lap! Finishing the washing up he implored me to ring the local nick to report him for the offence, keen to return to his old home "before they let my room out mate". He spent half his life in jail and following the death of his wife had nothing outside to compete with his time as a resident at 'Ford' Open Prison. When I declined he said -

"Oh please sir, give the Bill a ring, I don't want to frighten any old girls, or get me head beaten in or blown orf", I felt sure you'd help me out, I only wanna get back!"

Poor chap.  One would wish that more crooks could reflect on people like him and live within the law in order that his cell wouldn't be needed for someone else and he could thus remain inside 🤭😬

He returned after I defended him for 'stealing' silverware, very badly! The Judge who was well known to us both, dutifully did his part and he returned to his beloved cell/room a week or so later. This time he got extra time for persistence etc. It was good enough to see his time out. He left me a rather beautiful pocket watch and gold double chain with a seal. His solicitor (a smoker) a classic lighter. He'd had both engraved. They read ...

Remember me, when this you see and bear me in your mind
Let all the world say what it may
But speak of me as you find ...

Lovely.  Pity they were stolen goods, but it's the thought that counts😬😬😬

Quote from: Cassandra on January 28, 2024, 05:15:58 PMNot quite, as I explained Justice Turner handed down sentencing to Calocane under sections 37 and 41 of The Mental Health Act 2007. Section 37 allows reviews periodically by panels of psychologists etc but the decision for release is made by senior politicians, ie the Home Secretary or his Tribunals, not a 'parole board' of left leaning appeasers.

On the other hand, going by our recent Home Secretaries and other politicians, who knows?  😮

Very interesting about Brady, too.  Such decisions would benefit everyone else as well.

Cassandra, if it wasn't so serious, the image of him cooking you breakfast and having your dog on his lap would be hilarious

Quote from: dextrous63 on January 28, 2024, 07:00:15 PMLovely.  Pity they were stolen goods, but it's the thought that counts😬😬😬

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: That's my first laugh of the day..

That's quite sad I find myself feeling a bit sorry for him.   :rolleyes:

Quote from: Michael Rolls on January 29, 2024, 05:55:36 AMCassandra, if it wasn't so serious, the image of him cooking you breakfast and having your dog on his lap would be hilarious

I had to laugh myself, I can still see it vividly to this day and thankfully I do have a sense of the ridiculous. It was a scene straight from the 'Goon Show'! The chap in question could have been played perfectly by the actor 'Freddie Jones'. Yes he was a thief, but all my animals were extremely fond of him. He specialised in National Trust Properties or Museums, not liking to upset 'privates' with sensitive dispositions by stealing their sentimental items. He was also a 'melter', ie everything was instantly reduced in his oven in the cellar to weighted gold or silver. This particular 'bent' also made it hard for the 'old bill' to gather specific evidence against his activities! He came from a good family, his father was a 'right honourable'. Once I had to dispose / 're-home' his 5 Greyhounds following my failure to prevent another elongated term in the jug! I was more successful at this activity (they all went to private domestic homes) than I had been as his advocate. I should add both the 'gifts' he left were family heirlooms, with providence to prove it :grin: .

Quote from: Alex on January 29, 2024, 10:00:17 AMThat's quite sad I find myself feeling a bit sorry for him.   :rolleyes:

Yes my late wife felt the same. She knew I was rather fond of the old rascal and that I visited him during his periodic encarcerations. He once made her a beautiful bracelet I remember, as he was also a highly skilled jeweller and watch maker. In fact he could have made a really good living by honestly pursuing those abilities.

It was the danger of being caught that appealed, I always felt. Fatally he'd been in 'Military Intelligence' during WW2 and was often parachuted into France to break into German possessions to gather information by photographing documents etc. I think he just loved the challenge!

Always behaved in custody and court with superb manners, once asking the Judge how his wife was recovering following an operation on her hip! :wink:

What a fascinating man..

Quote from: Scrumpy on January 29, 2024, 04:33:10 PMWhat a fascinating man..

Yes he was, apparently a breed now long gone I'm told ...

Quote from: Cassandra on January 29, 2024, 03:15:24 PMI should add both the 'gifts' he left were family heirlooms, with providence to prove it :grin: .

Absolutely.  I'll not mention Shaw Taylor then 🫣🤭

Quote from: Cassandra on January 29, 2024, 03:32:54 PMFatally he'd been in 'Military Intelligence' during WW2 and was often parachuted into France to break into German possessions to gather information by photographing documents etc. I think he just loved the challenge!

Always behaved in custody and court with superb manners, once asking the Judge how his wife was recovering following an operation on her hip! :wink:

Despite his criminality, I find myself admiring the man.  What a shame he turned to crime when he could have made so much of himself and what more he could have done for the country and his fellow men.

Quote from: Cassandra on January 29, 2024, 03:15:24 PMI had to laugh myself, I can still see it vividly to this day and thankfully I do have a sense of the ridiculous. It was a scene straight from the 'Goon Show'! The chap in question could have been played perfectly by the actor 'Freddie Jones'. Yes he was a thief, but all my animals were extremely fond of him. He specialised in National Trust Properties or Museums, not liking to upset 'privates' with sensitive dispositions by stealing their sentimental items. He was also a 'melter', ie everything was instantly reduced in his oven in the cellar to weighted gold or silver. This particular 'bent' also made it hard for the 'old bill' to gather specific evidence against his activities! He came from a good family, his father was a 'right honourable'. Once I had to dispose / 're-home' his 5 Greyhounds following my failure to prevent another elongated term in the jug! I was more successful at this activity (they all went to private domestic homes) than I had been as his advocate. I should add both the 'gifts' he left were family heirlooms, with providence to prove it :grin: .

The trouble is children and animals are notoriously bad judges of character , they love the most awful people .
( Hitler was good with both )

Quote from: muddy on January 29, 2024, 08:45:41 PMThe trouble is children and animals are notoriously bad judges of character , they love the most awful people .
( Hitler was good with both )

Not my experience, I think the 'Yorkie' in question appreciated 'Bertie' (the 'gentleman' burglar) for his kindnesses, perhaps not fully appreciative of The Theft Act 1968, section 9. He frequently accompanied me when I interviewed clients in Chambers, or cells  over the years and possessed a strong penchant for sniffing out the ungodly. :wink:

Quote from: JBR on January 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMDespite his criminality, I find myself admiring the man.  What a shame he turned to crime when he could have made so much of himself and what more he could have done for the country and his fellow men.

I think he'd contributed from 1939/1945, far more than millions do in a lifetime. He held the D.S.O. for bravery behind enemy lines, which he also honoured me by leaving in my care upon his death. Post war he developed a small chain of jewellery repair shops operated by his ex service compatriots whom he trained. He sold out to the Limited Company, owned by these men that he'd formed. Life in 'civvie' Street bored him I always felt, so he resorted to crime to "pay the bills and gently fornicate". He was certainly a 'successful failure', something I can relate to ...

We should have the Death Penalty reinstated.for proven heinous crimes 
Murder is now, not the odd, one off crime as it used to be, it is becoming a daily epidemic of multiple murders, .
Incarcerating them doesn't make us better people .

Is Capital Punishment a satisfaction for revenge, or a restraint to it's enactment? - The Eternal Question.

I would have personally had no hesitation in sentencing some of the people I have known to death without a qualm. They are the embodiment of an evil that fortunately nearly all ordinary folk never have to experience.

Toady with DNA there is no chance that murderers could die when innocent - as may have been the case in the past before such technology existed. The disgusting slaughter of Fusilier Lee Rigby, by Islamist Assassins in 2013 is likewise irrefutable by video recordings.                         

Quote from: Cassandra on January 30, 2024, 03:46:59 PMIs Capital Punishment a satisfaction for revenge, or a restraint to it's enactment? - The Eternal Question.

In my opinion, it is primarily a deterrent and also a just reward for taking the life of someone else.

I am sure it was an effective deterrent in the past, because the number of murders per head of population is now very much higher than it was then.  I heard such a thing on GB News not long ago, and I have a suspicion that the numbers are almost double now than then, if I remember correctly.

I also feel that death for intentionally taking someone's life is the only fair consequence.  Some claim that incarceration for life is more of a punishment, but I think that might depend on the conditions that evil person experiences.  Having good friends in prison to associate with, for example, would hardly be a terrible punishment.

I do belive that when the line is crossed and is quite deliberate as in the Lee Rigby killing there is no coming back and the death penalty needs to be imposed .
The pity was that the policewomen who shot and wounded one of them didn't shoot to kill them both.
Would have been instant justice and have saved a lot of trouble and expense .

Quote from: muddy on January 30, 2024, 05:19:36 PMI do belive that when the line is crossed and is quite deliberate as in the Lee Rigby killings there is no coming back and the death penalty needs to be imposed .
The pity was that the policewomen who shot and wounded one of them didn't shoot to kill them both.
Would have been instant justice and have saved a lot of trouble and expense .

Trouble is they can then land up in the revolving court of woke revenge, years of abject misery not only for them, but their families too. The Metropolitan Police officer charged with the murder of Chris Kaba has been denied anonymity for the continued criminal proceedings, at a hearing at the Old Bailey today.

Judge Mark Lucraft KC has ruled that the officer, currently known only as NX121, will be named on today.

The judge has decided that, although the officer's name and possibly date of birth will be made public, their address will not be shared and there will be restrictions preventing photos or court sketches. Oh well done, thank you sir!

Who'd want to ever volunteer for the job in the firearms unit, when a split millisecond decision places you after 16 months of misery (why, so long) in a court charged with the murder of someone you never knew, with your name splashed everywhere and your family in hiding!

Many hideous killings over the last few years in UK, but Lee Rigby's murder was one I'll never, ever forget.