After the charging of the firearms officer who shot & killed a black waste-of-space, Met police firearms officers are starting to hand back their weapons.
Of course when this incident happened, the correct headline should have been 'Domestic Violence Assailant, In Car Linked To Firearms Offences, Shot Dead After Ramming Police Vehicles & Refusing To Surrender To Police'.
https://tinyurl.com/d5h29x4z
I doubt they get paid a lot extra to risk their lives so why risk their jobs too. Better to sit on their arses policing Twitter or cop anybody doing over 20 from a camera van.
a possible trial date of 9/9/24 - virtually a year away. Don't blame for one moment officers deciding that the game just isn't worth the candle.
Quote from: Diasi on September 24, 2023, 07:11:17 AMAfter the charging of the firearms officer who shot & killed a black waste-of space, Met police firearms officers are starting to hand back their weapons.
Yes, I read that and thought the same.
What will the elevated pen pushers do now, I wonder.
Send in the firearms units... oh no!
If all the police and the armed services went on strike, I think there will be many politicians, civil servants and judges s****ing themselves.
Quote from: klondike on September 24, 2023, 09:17:07 AMI doubt they get paid a lot extra to risk their lives so why risk their jobs too. Better to sit on their arses policing Twitter or cop anybody doing over 20 from a camera van.
I don't think they get any additional pay, that's why some of them are now saying their careers would be safer, as you say, trawling Twatter X for people who commit misgender hate crimes.
What will Mayor Khan do ? I'm sure I read he has 24 hour police protection, I assume armed police. Nowadays the law appears to be on the side of the criminal, particularly if he's black.
Quote from: Alex on September 24, 2023, 05:11:16 PMWhat will Mayor Khan do ? I'm sure I read he has 24 hour police protection, I assume armed police. Nowadays the law appears to be on the side of the criminal, particularly if he's black.
The whole case has only been brought because he was black, in order to satisfy our culturally enriching black criminal communities.
The officers who shot & killed unarmed white Harry Stanley, who was carrying an antique table leg he'd had repaired, weren't subjected to any criminal investigation.
I heard that 100 have handed in their authorisations to be armed. It isn't clear if that is them permanently declining the role or more of a protest. If they have given up the role it must give the Met a big problem training new ones both in getting somebody suitable to take the job and the training must surely be a bit more than a 3 day course.
Quote from: Alex on September 24, 2023, 05:11:16 PMWhat will Mayor Khan do ? I'm sure I read he has 24 hour police protection, I assume armed police. Nowadays the law appears to be on the side of the criminal, particularly if he's black.
I agree.
I'm all in favour of equality of colour and origin, but it is undeniably true that 'minorities' are now being treated better than indigenous white people in many ways.
Looking ahead, I wonder whether, when whites are a minority in this country (or at least parts of it, as is already the case), we white British will be regarded as more in need of protection and benefits than non-whites.
It is coming, I am sure of it, though not in my lifetime.
Army marksmen now on standby - allegedly
Update 09/25/23 — Army Stood Down as Firearms Officers Return to Work
A number of firearms officers reconsidered their relinquishing of their duties on Monday, with enough returning to work for the British Army support for the Metropolitan Police to be stood down. Describing the military support as a "contingency option", the force said discussions were ongoing and a "number of officers... have now returned", meaning they have enough marksmen available to provide counterterrorism policing.
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/09/25/british-army-drafted-in-as-armed-police-hand-in-guns-in-protest-at-officer-charged-with-murder/
I can't understand how the charge could be murder? The implication is that this officer, with aforethought and malice in mind set out to kill someone he never knew?
Surely Manslaughter with diminished responsibility?
Probably the gutless DPP have decided Murder, to avoid a 'George Floyd' moment?
Had the 'Deceased' been white, no doubt the decision of an inquiry would have found the result 'unfortunate'.
I don't blame the officers at all. After all if you made a mistake in your job of putting toothpaste in tubes, you wouldn't expect to be charged with Murder.
It's their work and adeath was incurred, tragic, but inevitably these things do happen.
Quote from: klondike on September 25, 2023, 02:41:16 PMUpdate 09/25/23 — Army Stood Down as Firearms Officers Return to Work
Translation
Army chiefs say "You got yourself into it, you get yourself out of it".
Quite likely, Soldiers don't make good policemen. Especially when armed.
When I called Kaba a black waste-of-space it seems I had good reason to do so.
He was a member of a violent gang & was well known to the police & he was part of an investigation for a nightclub shooting a few days before he was shot.
The firearms officer would already have known all of this when confronting him.
I was going to say 'good shot' but with a forehead that big I reckon any of us could have had hit the black tosser in the head. Lol :grin:
Another bastard.. waste of space..
He looks like an innocent 'Mummy's boy'.. Not so..
BLM !!! .. what a joke.. Not in this case..
The problem is that it's the black culture & their communities see it as normal life & nothing wrong with it.
As long as the people in control of this country keep pandering and supporting our criminal elements, the worse things are going to get.
The police must be sick and tired of accusations made against them when simply doing their job.
It is said that the police, like the armed forces, may not strike.
I can see the time, not too far ahead now, when they have all had enough of the lack of support from their political masters, that they will decide to do just that en masse.
What I'd really like to see is they, and others with the necessary skills and mind-set, taking over running this sorry country. Yes, not a 'democracy' I know, but our so-called democracy just isn't working today.
Yes, a revolution! I'm sure it will happen if nothing is done to improve matters.
I still don't understand how the officer has been charged with murder. Surely murder requires premeditation? A charge (not that I think that there should be any charge) of manslaughter or unlawful killing I could understand - but murder?
Quote from: Michael Rolls on September 27, 2023, 04:41:15 AMI still don't understand how the officer has been charged with murder. Surely murder requires premeditation? A charge (not that I think that there should be any charge) of manslaughter or unlawful killing I could understand - but murder?
No it doesn't, my understanding, from studying the legislation, is that a murder can be a killing via an act that is reckless & showing a disregard as to whether or not death could result from that action.
thanks, Phil - come to think of it I am quite wrong - a lot of murders are spur of the moment
Quote from: Michael Rolls on September 27, 2023, 07:49:53 AMthanks, Phil - come to think of it I am quite wrong - a lot of murders are spur of the moment
Hopefully Cassandra will add to this but the difference between manslaughter & murder depends on thresholds.
An example I would offer is when someone throws a single punch, in the heat of the moment, which kills someone, it's usually charged as manslaughter but if that person, in the heat of the moment swings a chain saw that he's using, it would usually be a murder charge.
Although it's being highlighted more & more, it still remains the case that the person who throws one punch may not realise that it could kill the victim.
In the case of swinging a chain saw, everyone knows that there's an extremely high likelihood of a fatal injury.
However, there are other factors involved so if the man swings his chainsaw at someone who he views as posing a risk to his life, it would be a good case of self defence & no crime committed.
This is the crux of the police shooting.
Quote from: Diasi on September 27, 2023, 06:56:04 AMNo it doesn't, my understanding, from studying the legislation, is that a murder can be a killing via an act that is reckless & showing a disregard as to whether or not death could result from that action.
That is also my understanding. I'd imagine that there's a whole raft of potential criteria that needs to be applied at times to delineate between the charge of manslaughter or murder being applied. No doubt Cassandra will be able to clarify some of these.
One advantage of a murder charge is with the right jury the FAO would never be convicted. If I were on a jury (I never was and think I'm too old now) I'd want a high level of proof to convict a FAO shooting a known criminal thought to be armed.
I agree, and I expect that this will be the decision of the court, if he is actually brought to trial.
I believe that most of those coppers have now agreed to pick up their firearms again. I wonder whether they'll now be prepared to pull the trigger next time they're faced with an armed criminal.
Quote from: dextrous63 on September 27, 2023, 08:57:15 AMThat is also my understanding. I'd imagine that there's a whole raft of potential criteria that needs to be applied at times to delineate between the charge of manslaughter or murder being applied. No doubt Cassandra will be able to clarify some of these.
Keeping it brief:
MurderThe crime of murder is committed, where a person:
Of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane); unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing); any reasonable creature (human being); with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).
ManslaughterManslaughter can be committed in one of three ways:
1) Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
2) Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and
3) Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").
Clearly the officer (NX121) has been charged with Murder under the
(not self-defence or other justified killing)!
In my opinion a harsh, unjustified and very questionable prosecution reference, reflecting the present reaction of the DPP to the regime of Public Internet Chat channels! No police officer within this circumstance has ever been charged with murder.
These officers have to make mili-second decisions. Surely an inquiry is sufficient to determine as to whether prosecution is necessary. As I always say though, we must hear the evidence first!
Many thanks Cassandra. Have copied that and emailed it to myself for future reference.👍😊
Quote from: JBR on September 27, 2023, 10:21:47 AMI agree, and I expect that this will be the decision of the court, if he is actually brought to trial.
I believe that most of those coppers have now agreed to pick up their firearms again. I wonder whether they'll now be prepared to pull the trigger next time they're faced with an armed criminal.
One of them just needs to shout out, very loudly, he's reaching for a gun.
If there's no gun found it still counts as a grounds for shooting as the officers made decisions based on what they believed to be true at the time.
There's no requirement for the officers to have to allow a suspect to produce a gun & point it at them before shooting.
The CPS guidance allows for a householder to use reasonable force, including lethal force & to use anything they can lay their hands on as a weapon, if he / she believes that an intruder presents a threat to them & in particular their life. The guidance also states that the householder doesn't have to wait for the intruder to actually do anything.
It's the threat perceived by the householder that matters.
So if an intruder enters my home I can guarantee that he will have stated his intention to do me severe harm & he can't deny it as he's dead, unless he follows my orders to the letter & lays face down on the floor to wait for the police to arrive.
P.S. I rather like the actions of a guy in the US who used his cross bow to confront an intruder & gave him the option of being shot or phoning the police himself.
Quote from: Diasi on September 27, 2023, 09:30:59 PMOne of them just needs to shout out, very loudly, he's reaching for a gun.
If there's no gun found it still counts as a grounds for shooting as the officers made decisions based on what they believed to be true at the time.
There's no requirement for the officers to have to allow a suspect to produce a gun & point it at them before shooting.
The CPS guidance allows for a householder to reasonable force, including lethal force & to use anything they can lay their hands on as a weapon, if he / she believes that an intruder presents a threat to them & in particular their life. The guidance also states that the householder doesn't have to wait for the intruder to actually do anything.
It's the threat perceived by the householder that matters.
So if an intruder enters my home I can guarantee that he will have stated his intention to do me severe harm & he can't deny it as he's dead, unless he follows my orders to the letter & lays face down on the floor to wait for the police to arrive.
P.S. I rather like the actions of a guy in the US who used his cross bow to confront an intruder & gave him the option of being shot or phoning the police himself.
Over here I was advised, if you are threatened "always pull the bastards into the house before shooting em!" More or less 'your home is your castle'. In our area (North Michigan) theres very little violent, or serious crime. However that said all my neighbours are 'tooled up', some with veritable arsenals of machine guns!
Its all about the 2nd amendment and historical inheritance to bear arms. I 'inherited' 3 pistols and a number of rifles / carbines, (subject to licence) when I purchased my home at auction. I must say, I feel safer with them here, but could only defend myself by discharging any of them, as a very last resort.
Quote from: Cassandra on September 27, 2023, 10:42:58 PMOver here I was advised, if you are threatened "always pull the bastards into the house before shooting em!" More or less 'your home is your castle'. In our area (North Michigan) theres very little violent, or serious crime. However that said all my neighbours are 'tooled up', some with veritable arsenals of machine guns!
Its all about the 2nd amendment and historical inheritance to bear arms. I 'inherited' 3 pistols and a number of rifles / carbines, (subject to licence) when I purchased my home at auction. I must say, I feel safer with them here, but could only defend myself by discharging any of them, as a very last resort.
I find it quite sad that I should even have to think about personal home defence, but then I think about some battered 90-yr-old in a hospital bed.
Like you, I would only take action as a very last resort.
If I ride up in the 'wilds' here I do carry the Magnum 357 revolver as a recommended defence against Bears or 'Wolverines' and perhaps cougars. I did come close to a 'black bear' once but called out to him, so he was aware I was around. He shuffled off to a semi fallen tree and surveyed me with interest, but left us alone. I'm told a warning shot is nearly always sufficient to scare these creatures away. They are by now very aware that we can kill them at a distance too. I find leaving them packs of dog biscuit 2nds, (crushed and sold by supermarkets) helps relationships develop very well too.
Sounds like you're morphing into Grizzly Adams😬
Yes :wink: If someone had told me years ago I'd wind up even attempting such things a month away from my 78th birthday I'd have laughed at them.
I never travel alone on these overnight jaunts (tent stove and chattels on a pack-horse) and travel mainly with Bobo or Annie (ex lady state rifle champion). I keep a mobile phone and our two way radio with my cousin on the other end, just in case and of course satellite co-ordinates are so accurate to locate someone by, we also carry flares.
To sleep beneath the stars is a magic, I just can't explain as Peter Pan said '2nd planet to the right, then straight on till morning'.
I nearly did all this 26 years ago when my late wife passed. I'd have been poorer in some ways, but so enrichened in others. Great thing to torture yourself with - hindsight!
Indeed. I suspect you can find way more areas free from both light and noise pollution than back here in Blighty (IIRC there aren't many truly "quiet" places in England, and there was a report a few years ago that one area somewhere in the Cheviots had actually managed to be given that rare status).
At least you're enjoying it now, and perhaps more so than if you had moved way back then. Having seen piccies you've posted in the past and read about some of the antics you get up to now, I'm envious.
Our son lives in an old farmhouse in Cheshire, we often sit out, with their dogs, after dark, no street lights, very quiet. Its set in a really big garden, with lots of very established trees round it. Horses over the fence. No comparison to the wilds of the US, but we appreciate it.
Your adventures sound wonderful Cassandra. Well done for taking the opportunities and living life to the full.
Quote from: Cassandra on September 27, 2023, 09:20:16 PMKeeping it brief:
Murder
The crime of murder is committed, where a person:
Of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane); unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing); any reasonable creature (human being); with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).
Manslaughter
Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways:
1) Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
2) Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and
3) Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").
Clearly the officer (NX121) has been charged with Murder under the (not self-defence or other justified killing)!
In my opinion a harsh, unjustified and very questionable prosecution reference, reflecting the present reaction of the DPP to the regime of Public Internet Chat channels! No police officer within this circumstance has ever been charged with murder.
These officers have to make mili-second decisions. Surely an inquiry is sufficient to determine as to whether prosecution is necessary. As I always say though, we must hear the evidence first!
This is interesting and probably useful information, but is it a British or an American definition?
I shall find it very interesting to read the outcome of this trial.
If he is found guilty of murder, or even of manslaughter, I should be very surprised if his colleagues and many others throughout the country don't react and refuse to carry weapons again.
After all, it is more than likely, even following prescribed rules of engagement, that there will be legal challenges. I remember a similar thing happening to troops in N. Ireland being accused of killing unarmed civilians (civilians often being members of the IRA), and being sent to trial for years afterwards.
Quote from: JBR on September 28, 2023, 10:30:24 AMThis is interesting and probably useful information, but is it a British or an American definition?
I shall find it very interesting to read the outcome of this trial.
If he is found guilty of murder, or even of manslaughter, I should be very surprised if his colleagues and many others throughout the country don't react and refuse to carry weapons again.
After all, it is more than likely, even following prescribed rules of engagement, that there will be legal challenges. I remember a similar thing happening to troops in N. Ireland being accused of killing unarmed civilians (civilians often being members of the IRA), and being sent to trial for years afterwards.
This is the British definition.
And from what I see in the definitions the FAO has no case to answer.
In the same vein, it seems that the bombing of Dresden is now being touted as a war crime along with the 'Black Snow' bombing of Tokyo by the US.
It's lucky that none of the crews will be alive to face trial if the woke tossers ever get their way.
Quote from: Diasi on September 28, 2023, 10:48:23 AMThis is the British definition.
And from what I see in the definitions the FAO has no case to answer.
In the same vein, it seems that the bombing of Dresden is now being touted as a war crime along with the 'Black Snow' bombing of Tokyo by the US.
It's lucky that none of the crews will be alive to face trial if the woke tossers ever get their way.
Absolutely ridiculous, 'Gen Z' are far out woke, wet bigots, everywhere, they were 'born' over here. My baby brother died during an Air raid in 1940. A war started (and the bombing) by the Germans.
As 'Bomber' Harris said "they sewed the wind and now they will reap the whirlwind".
Quote from: Cassandra on September 28, 2023, 12:18:40 PMAbsolutely ridiculous, 'Gen Z' are far out woke, wet bigots, everywhere, they were 'born' over here. My baby brother died during an Air raid in 1940. A war started (and the bombing) by the Germans.
As 'Bomber' Harris said "they sewed the wind and now they will reap the whirlwind".
That's the phrase with which they choose to vilifi him.
Quote from: GrannyMac on September 28, 2023, 07:14:26 AMOur son lives in an old farmhouse in Cheshire, we often sit out, with their dogs, after dark, no street lights, very quiet. Its set in a really big garden, with lots of very established trees round it. Horses over the fence. No comparison to the wilds of the US, but we appreciate it.
Your adventures sound wonderful Cassandra. Well done for taking the opportunities and living life to the full.
Thank you, mostly my activities are limited to my 'home' grounds, or my neighbours. Simple things like camping out overnight with one's dogs and horses, like little Albert and his larger cousin 'Fenimore', a Siberian Huskie, that I 'borrow' off my pal are very usual out here. Nothing like catching a fresh 'Black Crappie' from the lake and cooking it on the Shore as the sun sets and sharing it with the dogs and your companion. Waking at dawn with a brawny Huskie, tucked in your back and a Westie inside the sleeping bag! Back in the UK, my cars were very much my hobby. Here I rarely drive now, certainly not enough to have warranted the one classic I bought over with me. In fact my 'daily drive' is a humble little '1989 Honda 'Acty' 4x4 mini pick up (2,800 miles in 34 years). It came with the manifest of the house at auction and I recently had it 'restored', bodily. It never goes off the plot, so its not registered. It's amazing just where it can get to though! If my health holds I hope to get a few years more at it too.
My apologies for wandering off topic here ...
Room for plenty of critters in the back of that ! :grin:
>>Waking at dawn with a brawny Huskie, tucked in your back and a Westie inside the sleeping bag!<<
Marvelous!
Quote from: Alex on September 28, 2023, 02:17:41 PMRoom for plenty of critters in the back of that ! :grin:
Plenty of room for a coffin. The Duke of Edinburgh had his landrover, so it seems only fair....
Personally I'm hoping to fit some roof bars onto my Aygo😉😬
But, we digress....
I can certainly see why you said you wished you'd made the move years ago, but then you probably wouldn't have had the amazing place you have now so your move also might not have been as amazing as it is now.
I do, wholeheartedly, wish you many years of enjoying it.
Quote from: Diasi on September 28, 2023, 10:48:23 AMThis is the British definition.
And from what I see in the definitions the FAO has no case to answer.
In the same vein, it seems that the bombing of Dresden is now being touted as a war crime along with the 'Black Snow' bombing of Tokyo by the US.
It's lucky that none of the crews will be alive to face trial if the woke tossers ever get their way.
I sincerely hope that that is the case.
Unlike the Americans and, incidentally, most of Europe, our police are almost unique in not routinely carrying firearms.
One benefit of that is that those who do are specially trained to probably a higher ability than many of those in foreign countries who all carry firearms.
On the other hand, I think it is important to maintain a suitable number of these experts so that they can be readily available just about anywhere (within reason) quickly.
Quote from: JBR on September 28, 2023, 08:21:39 PMI sincerely hope that that is the case.
Unlike the Americans and, incidentally, most of Europe, our police are almost unique in not routinely carrying firearms.
One benefit of that is that those who do are specially trained to probably a higher ability than many of those in foreign countries who all carry firearms.
On the other hand, I think it is important to maintain a suitable number of these experts so that they can be readily available just about anywhere (within reason) quickly.
I've spent numerous hours studying the parts of the criminal Act that covers crimes of violence & self-defence & also the CPS guidance notes.
What both Cassandra & I have posted are what's contained in those documents.
What does bother me is the use of the term 'reasonable force' which is sloppy, & subjective & can mean a 100 different things to a 100 different people.
The Act should say that a householder can use whatever force they deem to be necessary.
That way a third party, who wasn't there, isn't involved in second guessing what happened & it would definitely make an offender think very long & hard before breaking into a house.
There's an old saying that one only knows one hasn't used sufficient reasonable force when one is dead!!
Quote from: dextrous63 on September 28, 2023, 09:27:03 PMThere's an old saying that one only knows one hasn't used sufficient reasonable force when one is dead!!
Exactly.
Quote from: Diasi on September 28, 2023, 09:23:21 PMI've spent numerous hours studying the parts of the criminal Act that covers crimes of violence & self-defence & also the CPS guidance notes.
What does bother me is the use of the term 'reasonable force' which is sloppy, & subjective & can mean a 100 different things to a 100 different people.
I completely agree. That wording is far too wishy-washy.
I think that the real priority should be in favour of the person being attacked or threatened.
If someone breaks into your house and you feel to be in danger of losing your possessions or even your life, there should be no restrictions. In that respect, the Yanks have it 100% correct.
I was daydreaming earlier today, and my mind found itself thinking about how I could effectively defend myself without the availability of a firearm which could be used against an attacker without coming too close to become unsafe.
No firearms in our house (except for a bow, which would need stringing, and a few arrows!).
However I do have a cigarette lighter (though I don't smoke) and a can of gas for it.
The lighter in one hand and the gas canister in the other: a ready-made flame-thrower!
Both perfectly legal, and sufficient to effectively repel, at risk of burning their face and setting light to their hair, an attacker. 😨
Quote from: Diasi on September 28, 2023, 09:29:07 PMExactly.
Mind you, at least you'd die happy in the knowledge that the CPS won't be taking you to court and that the criminal will live to maim/steal/ terrorise/rape/kill and cost the taxpayer a shedload another day.
Every cloud has a tear-sodden coffin lining.
self-defence - now, at 86 with a gammy left arm and wobbly legs, I suppose I could always threaten an intruder with my walking stick and have him die laughing - or would that be excessive force?
Of course and the DPP would probably charge you with 'intended murder'.
wouldn't be surprised! Yesterday's paper carried an article by a retired firearms office and a readers' letter from another - both said that if still on the job they would have immediately hand in their firearms' authorization