One of the Titanic tourist attraction submarines has gone missing.
It costs around £250,000 for the experience of diving 2.37 miles down to the Titanic, but as these tourists will have had the real experience of plunging down to the wreck, I wonder if they'll be charged extra.
Harsh Phil, Harsh. It must be terrifying for all on board the thing, how long can the air last and you can bet the media will go on about The Titanic claiming more lives. They say it's missing, but don't these sort of things have sonar and be in touch with the surface, unless everything had failed on board they should surely be able to track it.
At £250k a pop I wonder where the tourists came from.
4 days air:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872
You have to appreciate the irony.
Terrible.
Assuming that sufficient air remains, and that something has gone wrong with the propulsion and blowing the tanks to surface, is there any rescue craft that can go down that far to, perhaps, attach a line from the surface to pull up the submersible?
I'm sure there would be such craft but are they in the area or can they get there in time. With it missing it seems unlikely to me any rescue can be made as it would first need to be found.
You will probably think I'm scaremongering, but I get the feeling this will not be a rescue mission, but a recovery one.
It's just not got a good feeling about it.
I hope I'm wrong though. :worried:
Quote from: Raven on June 19, 2023, 05:34:23 PMHarsh Phil, Harsh. It must be terrifying for all on board.
But surely that adds to the realism as the Titanic passengers would also have been terrified.
Apparently there's oxygen for 96 hours but the current thinking is on the submarine having been snagged on part of the wreckage & the communications equipment being damaged.
It'll make a good nail-biting film.
Trouble with just pulling them up, assuming someone can attach a line .... at what depth do you get the bends?
Sounds like one of the passengers is a billionaire.
Ah ha ... skullduggery.
Best of luck to them. Sounds scary.
at what depth do you get the bends?
That's only applicable to those diving who aren't in a pressurised vessel. If that's the case with them then they are dead already.
It's to do with the air they are breathing being dissolved into their blood. At high pressures the blood can hold more. Reduce pressure too quick and bubbles form in the bloodstream which is apparenty painful and can be deadly. They have to come up slowly to keep the outgassing slow to avoid problems. I think they have a helium oxygen mix for deep dives as the problem is caused by nitrogen. That's all from memory. If you want a proper explanation then google is your friend.
It seems that their adventure is getting more realistic by the minute as the visibility in the area is very poor due to thick fog.
Just like when the Titanic sank.
It is all very, very scary and I truly hope there is a solution..
However , If people want to spend 'silly money' on doing something 'exciting' they must endure the risks they can bring..
It will make a good nail biting film..!!!!
I have more praise for those young children who's plane came down in the Amazon.. They watched as their mother died... They learned how to survive..
This would make a nail biting film.. Incredibly brave..
Quote from: Scrumpy on June 20, 2023, 09:36:00 AMI have more praise for those young children who's plane came down in the Amazon.. They watched as their mother died... They learned how to survive..
This would make a nail biting film.. Incredibly brave..
It's already been rumoured that a film may well be made.
Their jungle survival skills were already well known to them as they're indiginous South American's.
There is a report in the Telegraph that, although the submersible is nearer to Canada than America, the US Coast Guard have taken up the task to try to rescue the people on board.
The report also mentions that the Americans have declined to allow another submersible, owned by the same company who owns the one in trouble, to participate in the search despite its ability to descend as far as the stricken one.
Apparently, their air will run out on Thursday.
This is a tragic story and I feel for the poor buggers on board.
But every time it comes on the News , I hear Ringo singing in the background. My wife says there is something wrong with me. :nooo:
Quote from: Raven on June 19, 2023, 06:49:11 PMYou will probably think I'm scaremongering, but I get the feeling this will not be a rescue mission, but a recovery one.
It's just not got a good feeling about it.
I hope I'm wrong though. :worried:
I agree, it bodes ill for those poor people.
They may be wealthy but they are human
just like the rest of us.
Quote from: 1955vintage on June 20, 2023, 11:33:56 AMThis is a tragic story and I feel for the poor buggers on board.
But every time it comes on the News , I hear Ringo singing in the background. My wife says there is something wrong with me. :nooo:
Lol. And naming it Titan wasn't the most inspired choice.
Contact was lost an hour & 45 minutes into the dive when it would be very near to, or even on, the bottom so it could have been be a "shut that door" moment, or a catastrophic event, to use the words of a naval diving expert.
I reckon the two Pakistanis were scoping out the possibility of using submersibles to smuggle their illegal immigrants under the Channel & into the UK. :grin:
Quote from: Diasi on June 20, 2023, 11:49:54 AMLol. And naming it Titan wasn't the most inspired choice.
Contact was lost an hour & 45 minutes into the dive when it would be very near to, or even on, the bottom so it could have been be a "shut that door" moment, or a catastrophic event, to use the words of a naval diving expert.
I reckon the two Pakistanis were scoping out the possibility of using submersibles to smuggle their illegal immigrants under the Channel & into the UK. :grin:
🤣 Oh, how could you?!
Quote from: JBR on June 20, 2023, 02:03:40 PM🤣 Oh, how could you?!
I know, I have the gift. :grin:
It must be so awful for those who are on board, knowing they are very likely to die in that tin can. I can't imagine what they are thinking and feeling. :cry: :cry: :cry:
If there was some sort of catastrophic failure they are gone already. One thing is for sure - that will be the last tourist trip that runs.
Quote from: Raven on June 20, 2023, 04:54:54 PMIt must be so awful for those who are on board, knowing they are very likely to die in that tin can. I can't imagine what they are thinking and feeling. :cry: :cry: :cry:
I wonder if there are suicide pills aboard, for just this eventuality? IIRC, Spacecraft used to have them.
If they do the passengers won't have been told of them in advance,
Quote from: Raven on June 20, 2023, 04:54:54 PMIt must be so awful for those who are on board, knowing they are very likely to die in that tin can. I can't imagine what they are thinking and feeling. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Probably what the passengers on the Titanic were feeling, the only difference was they had a bigger tin can.
Well strictly speaking, the submarine is made out of carbon fibre, but the Titanic experience will be the same.
WOW Just got this in my FB Feed, talk about a "Get out of Jail Free" card. I know it's a business but WOW. [1060]
No way in hell would I have signed that, but I would never have wanted to go to see the Titanic in the first place. It's a tomb, let the ones there RIP. :worried:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryDMFCfc/Screenshot-20230620-180616.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K4hd0LXs)
I don't see anything surprising in that. No insurance company would touch that risk.
Its horrific, its tragic, but surely anyone choosing to go on this 'adventure' would weigh up the risk, especially if they were taking their child?
I wonder if they had to sign an agreement not to eat spicy curries for a week before the dive?
My granddaughter Hattie was talking about it today..
She is a person who enjoys getting out there and doing stuff.. Zip wires.. cold water swimming etc.. nothing dangerous.. She said that knowing you are probably going to die .. over 2miles deep in the dark ocean.. sitting with your child... is what nightmares are made of.. But what made her gasp was the 200,000 cost..
I truly hope that if they can not be saved, they died quickly in the beginning..
I wouldn't have got in that boat if they'd given me £200,000. It's claustrophobic sitting in the back of a car, never mind a small tank. I do hope they're found in time.
I've been trying to envisage the conversations of the people in the submersible.
Such as the passengers asking the operator if he put new Duracell batteries in the Xbox controller & the son telling his father he'd rather have gone to Alton Towers.
So far as I'm concerned they're all extremely rich people who just wanted to be able to brag about being able to afford it.
The Titanic site is a mass grave & should never have been found & disturbed in the first place.
(The Titanic site is a mass grave & should never have been found & disturbed in the first place.)
This is the only bit I agree with, you've been really strange through out this thread. :hmm:
I cannot make out why some one would want to see the titanic close up when there are numerous dvd which show what one of those persons has already seen close up many times and why would these people all of whom have plenty of money want to risk their lives going down in a dodgy submarine as one admiral quoted this morning why risk your life in a unsafe machine which isn't suitable or the job in any way,
to which is cramped with limited space. so what are these people doing surely common sense would say dont do it, what are you trying to prove except sadly by now the chances of them being rescued is slim seeing as time is running out , and this sub has little or no safety measures installed ,either,
one man a multi billionaire, the other a millionaire, what were they hoping to achieve, now more people are getting involved in trying in a limited time to rescue them ,lets hope they do,
i would like and hope that they will be rescued but my mind says why did they want to do this in the first place????
I only hope they get out alive.
I can't disagree with that Alfred. Given the money to do anything that isn't something I would have chosen to do. With the current space possibilities I wouldn't do those either.
If i heard the news right this morning .. There was no back-up should anything fail..
I feel sad for them.. very sad..
I may have mentioned this before, I can't remember, but I read in the paper that a British company have offered their help and possess a RPV which they claim can go down to the sunk submarine (assuming they can locate it) and attach a cable from its 'mother ship'(!) which would then enable them to winch it up.
Just one little hitch. The Americans won't allow them to participate in the rescue attempts. 🙄
Why? That hasn't been explained, but I have my own theory.
Should a British rescue attempt succeed, where the great Americans failed, the world-beating Americans would look small, and we can't have that, can we?
I was wondering that myself, seems they have refused help from several sources. :boo:
This denial of help by the US Coast Guard has just been announced on GB News.
One of the presenters was going to suggest the possibility of attaching a winch cable, but unfortunately the 'guest expert' won't shut up...!
Quote from: Raven on June 21, 2023, 09:34:50 AM(The Titanic site is a mass grave & should never have been found & disturbed in the first place.)
This is the only bit I agree with, you've been really strange through out this thread. :hmm:
I regard all those on board as stupid thrill seekers, & it's seems I'm not alone in my view, who are in a situation of their own making.
"The scientist condemned the mission taking place in what he described as an "experimental craft".He said: "This is not a Disneyland ride. This is Mother Nature. The ocean is unforgiving."Everything is opening up to tourists and I fear when there is money involved and profit to be had with thrill seekers out there willing to ante up the money, that is a recipe for disaster."It's reported that banging noises have been heard, but that could be the submersible being smashed against one of the propellers, as described by the scientist who was in a similar predicament when he went down on a bona-fide valid exploration mission.
Quote from: Diasi on June 21, 2023, 12:14:36 PMI regard all those on board as stupid thrill seekers, & it's seems I'm not alone in my view, who are in a situation of their own making.
"The scientist condemned the mission taking place in what he described as an "experimental craft".
He said: "This is not a Disneyland ride. This is Mother Nature. The ocean is unforgiving.
"Everything is opening up to tourists and I fear when there is money involved and profit to be had with thrill seekers out there willing to ante up the money, that is a recipe for disaster."
Sadly you are correct, but I still hope they are found before the air goes. Then I hope there's no more dives.
Quote from: Raven on June 21, 2023, 12:17:58 PMSadly you are correct, but I still hope they are found before the air goes. Then I hope there's no more dives.
I hope they are, & then get billed for a few $billion to cover the cost of the search & hopefully rescue mission.
The 'banging' which has been heard was described as an SOS message (in Morse code).
That, if traceable, might lead the rescuers to its source.
However, even if accurately located, the only means of rescuing the people on board would be to raise the submarine using a winch.
It is not possible to extract the people individually one by one from the submarine for obvious reasons.
Perhaps they don't want it found because it's never been anywhere near the Titanic.
In my opinion it imploded 1hr 45mins into the dive when all contact was lost.
At that time it should have been 15 mins from the seabed, if it was already on the seabed when contact was lost it must have been diving faster than it should have been.
The large viewing window hadn't been certified for the depths to which it was diving.
Quote from: Diasi on June 21, 2023, 06:54:58 PMIn my opinion it imploded 1hr 45mins into the dive when all contact was lost.
At that time it should have been 15 mins from the seabed, if it was already on the seabed when contact was lost it must have been diving faster than it should have been.
The large viewing window hadn't been certified for the depths to which it was diving.
That is certainly possible, but what about the messages consisting of banging SOS in Morse Code more recently?
How frightening..
A close friend of one of the passengers was interested in going on the dive but wasn't happy with the machine when he looked it over..
It seems they were bolted in from the outside..
There will be many stories to come ...
"For I know that death hath ten thousand several doors for men to take their exits;
and 'tis found they go on such strange geometrical hinges,
You may open them both ways: any way, for heaven-sake" - John Webster
The last line though doesn't seem apply to these adventurers sadly? Their hinges were bolted down coffinesque from the outside? Many people do things just because they can and that knowledge, accompanied by inauspicious wealth fortifies them into believing they are immortal.
Still no man should die for a desire to do something I hope they survive, but fear they'll never be found. Just imagine the fathers last minutes if he died last, knowing he committed his 19 year old son to a watery grave and watched as he breathed his last, poor poor man.
In a way as Diasi suggests I hope that it imploded, perhaps after an out of control descent. At least then the end was mercifully quick.
Thus the mighty Titanic gains five more victims.
There's a WW1 U boat at the bottom of Lake Michigan incidentally ...
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/u-boat-bottom-of-lake-michigan.html?chrome=1 (https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/u-boat-bottom-of-lake-michigan.html?chrome=1)
Quote from: Cassandra on June 21, 2023, 08:05:31 PMThere's a WW1 U boat at the bottom of Lake Michigan incidentally ...
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/u-boat-bottom-of-lake-michigan.html?chrome=1 (https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/u-boat-bottom-of-lake-michigan.html?chrome=1)
Very interesting. I had no idea about that.
But how did they get it to Lake Michigan? Over land, I assume.
Quote from: JBR on June 21, 2023, 07:07:10 PMThat is certainly possible, but what about the messages consisting of banging SOS in Morse Code more recently?
I would take a lot of convincing as it's now being reported that it's not tapping in the SOS format but rather a noise that is heard every half hour or so.
I think the rescuers, understandably, are clutching at straws.
I also found Cassandra's link very interesting.
I'm sure I went on a U Boat a few years ago, or what was left of it, it's moored at Birkenhead. I cant imagine anything worse than going underwater in a tin can ! Poor souls, hope they find them in time.
Unless it's all part of an elaborate publicity stunt the submersible won't be found in time, & may even never be found, so the 5 onboard are already dead or soon will be.
Once the time has run out + another 24 hours, the search should stop & let it become another chapter in the Titanic story.
Quote from: Diasi on June 22, 2023, 07:48:37 AMUnless it's all part of an elaborate publicity stunt
I doubt that. For some any publicity is good publicity may be true but I can't believe that almost killing your customers can be good publicity for any business. IMO it's pretty much certain that this business is done for regardless. If, as seems very likely to me, the sub and passengers are not recovered intact that becomes even more certain. I can't imagine that the thing is insured.
Quote from: Cassandra on June 21, 2023, 08:05:31 PM"For I know that death hath ten thousand several doors for men to take their exits;
and 'tis found they go on such strange geometrical hinges,
You may open them both ways: any way, for heaven-sake" - John Webster
Many people do things just because they can and that knowledge, accompanied by inauspicious wealth fortifies them into believing they are immortal.
Well written Cassandra...
The latest I have heard included a statement that the air will run out at midday today.
I'm afraid that, even should they actually find the thing now, by the time they can extract it the air will be long gone, and they will be rescuing only bodies.
Of course, that may bring some relief to relatives and friends.
Like virtually everybody else, there is no way I would ever go on one of those 'adventures'.
In my opinion, a far safer method of looking at the Titanic remains would be to send down a RPV which, of course, contain cameras. These have, or could have, a cable connecting to the 'mother ship'(!) on the surface and anyone interested enough (scientists, or even tourists) could view the Titanic (or other things) with probably a similar standard of images, and without putting their lives at risk.
Hopefully, the company which runs these 'trips' will not be doing it any more.
Hopefully, the company which runs these 'trips' will not be doing it any more.
Buisness model 100% destroyed already.
Equipment probably destroyed or lost. How many of these do they have anyway? I suspect the answer may be 1 as this sounds like a pretty amateur outfit.
Quote from: klondike on June 22, 2023, 08:30:59 AMI doubt that. For some any publicity is good publicity may be true but I can't believe that almost killing your customers can be good publicity for any business. IMO it's pretty much certain that this business is done for regardless. If, as seems very likely to me, the sub and passengers are not recovered intact that becomes even more certain. I can't imagine that the thing is insured.
It was a tongue-in-cheek comment to reinforce what I've said from the start that they aren't going to find it, as I doubt there's anything left to find.
Depends what went wrong. It's obviously too late now to save anybody but they may try to find wreckage and could even do that. They spent ages searching for that airliner without even having any clear idea what route was taken or where it may have crashed. They at least know where this thing started and where it intended to go.
That said I suspect you are right and nothing will be found.
tragedy
A debris field has been found in the area of the Titanic so it looks more & more like an implosion event.
The Titan's perspex viewing window was, on one news report, stated to be the largest submersible vehicle viewing window.
However, it seems it was only certified to a pressure depth of 1,000 metres & further depth testing & certification wasn't made on the basis of the cost.
Therefore it's reasonable to assume that this was the weak spot compared with the carbon fibre & titanium which had been engineered for the Titanic's depth, although some engineers have said the the carbon fibre should have been 7 inches thick & not the 5 inches that it was.
All this of course is just my opinion on what happened.
Breitbart is reporting debris has been found, no other details.
Quote from: Ashy on June 22, 2023, 05:37:57 PMBreitbart is reporting debris has been found, no other details.
The whole of the area is a debris field so one has to assume that it's debris which is not compatible with the Titanic.
Quote from: JBR on June 21, 2023, 09:08:33 PMVery interesting. I had no idea about that.
But how did they get it to Lake Michigan? Over land, I assume.
No, water all the way. From New York port sail to Albany up the Hudson River head for the Lake Erie Canal, near Liverpool
(New York, not England) and the Three Rivers. Then take the Oswego Canal in New York State to reach Lake Ontario, head north and use the the Welland Canal and the Trent Severn Waterway to reach Lake Michigan.
The Sub was on a tour of the Lakes so probably went via the Detroit River to Lake Ontario. Lake Huron, and maybe Lake Superior too. It was a much viewed machine, shrouded in mystery and in those days looking like something from a Science Fiction novel.
The debris is from the sub. Gawd, I hope it was so quick they didn't have time to realise what was happening. :cry:
BBC News - Titan sub debris field: Parts of missing sub's cover found, expert says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65991651
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464
Quote from: Raven on June 22, 2023, 06:37:15 PMThe debris is from the sub. Gawd, I hope it was so quick they didn't have time to realise what was happening. :cry:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464
Well to give you some idea of the water pressure effect on soft items, a large McDonalds polystyrene drink cup would end up the size of a dressmaker's thimble within a millisecond, according to a demonstration I saw.
If my summation is correct I think they would probably have had a few seconds watching the perspex cracking.
There's going to be heads rolling over this. :sad:
How dare they let an unsafe sub go down. :angry:
Greedy for the money the passengers paid maybe? :downvote:
Stockton Rush who was The Ocean Gate CEO was on board..
He once said
' At some point, safety is just pure waste. If you want to ,be safe , don't get out of bed'.
I think this guy had little regard for safety..
He is now eating his own words..
I find it extraordinary that passengers would go near anything that wasn't a 100% known to be safe.
Quote from: Scrumpy on June 22, 2023, 07:35:23 PMStockton Rush who was The Ocean Gate CEO was on board..
He once said
' At some point, safety is just pure waste. If you want to ,be safe , don't get out of bed'.
I think this guy had little regard for safety..
He is now eating his own words..
I find it extraordinary that passengers would go near anything that wasn't a 100% known to be safe.
As I posted earlier, a scientist said it's not a Disneyland ride but while ever there are people willing to pay huge some of money for a thrill, there will always be someone willing to provide it.
Actually, Stockton Rush did do what Disneyland does, provide a thrill ride at a cost & just as Disneyland has had fatal accidents due to poor maintenance, so has Stockton Rush with design cost cutting.
It's only the prices & the ride that are different, the principle's exactly the same.
Quote from: Scrumpy on June 22, 2023, 07:35:23 PMI find it extraordinary that passengers would go near anything that wasn't a 100% known to be safe.
They do that every day. Nothing is 100% safe....
(https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article22311183.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200c/0_bus.jpg)
Mind you I suspect that buses are a few degrees of magnitude safer than that sub.
At least a bus has an emergency exit.
Yes. I just hope it was instant.
Quote from: GrannyMac on June 22, 2023, 08:09:36 PMYes. I just hope it was instant.
It would be instant at the point of implosion but they still could have a few seconds of realisation.
Well the pilot & the owner certainly would.
I feel so sorry for the woman who has lost her husband and her son, so sad.
such sad news - but at least it was quick
Quote from: klondike on June 22, 2023, 07:56:27 PMThey do that every day. Nothing is 100% safe....
(https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article22311183.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200c/0_bus.jpg)
Mind you I suspect that buses are a few degrees of magnitude safer than that sub.
I probably worded my remark wrongly..
I am well aware that nothing is 100 % safe..
But... To go in a sub that didn't (feel) right to some others, being bolted in from the outside and paying 200,000 seems a bit foolish to me.. Daredevils .. thrill seekers.. call them what you will..
I feel sad for the young boy who only went to appease his father..
Couldn't agree more. No chance I'd have risked that either.
This from Cameron (director of the film Titanic) is truly shocking
Titanic director James Cameron: 'OceanGate were warned' -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65994707 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65994707)
:boo: :boo: :boo: :boo: :boo: :boo: to OceanGate..
Reading all the reports, it was an accident waiting to happen.
Complete madness.
Quote from: Cassandra on June 22, 2023, 05:45:38 PMNo, water all the way. From New York port sail to Albany up the Hudson River head for the Lake Erie Canal, near Liverpool (New York, not England) and the Three Rivers. Then take the Oswego Canal in New York State to reach Lake Ontario, head north and use the the Welland Canal and the Trent Severn Waterway to reach Lake Michigan.
The Sub was on a tour of the Lakes so probably went via the Detroit River to Lake Ontario. Lake Huron, and maybe Lake Superior too. It was a much viewed machine, shrouded in mystery and in those days looking like something from a Science Fiction novel.
Thanks for that. Looking on the map, I couldn't see any rivers of any magnitude leading to the lakes other than the St Lawrence. I hadn't noticed the canals, and I suppose the submarine is slender enough to sail through them, locks and all.
June 23, 2023, 11:15:54 AMQuote from: Diasi on June 22, 2023, 05:27:38 PMA debris field has been found in the area of the Titanic so it looks more & more like an implosion event.
The Titan's perspex viewing window was, on one news report, stated to be the largest submersible vehicle viewing window.
However, it seems it was only certified to a pressure depth of 1,000 metres & further depth testing & certification wasn't made on the basis of the cost.
Therefore it's reasonable to assume that this was the weak spot compared with the carbon fibre & titanium which had been engineered for the Titanic's depth, although some engineers have said the the carbon fibre should have been 7 inches thick & not the 5 inches that it was.
All this of course is just my opinion on what happened.
If any part of the submersible, window or anything else, was only tested down to 1000m, then it was irresponsible to go any deeper.
At least the owner of the company has joined his victims, though that money they paid will be sitting in the company accounts ready to be picked up by whoever has taken it over.
Personally, I think that money should, at least, be handed to the families of those passengers who perished.
I can't take any credit for saying, on the first day it went missing, it had suffered an implosion, as it was blindingly obvious from even the scant information available at the time & I reckon most ordinary Joe's knew it.
What this demonstrates is that Rush displayed all the classic traits of being a full blown sociopath / psychopath / narcissist.
He openly bragged about breaking the rules & implied that breaking the rules could only be done by super intelligent innovators & that "You're remembered for the rules you break".
Well the tosser got that bit right if nothing else.
https://tinyurl.com/3wtvbt4x
The truths coming out now, there's a lot of trouble ahead for some. :wtf: :nooo:
BBC News - Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
sheer recklessness - shame he took others with him
Quote from: Michael Rolls on June 23, 2023, 05:22:57 PMsheer recklessness - shame he took others with him
The problem is that Rush, as a narcissist, thought his engineering & innovative skills were bordering on genius which is why he chose carbon fibre for the cabin of the Titan as carbon fibre is extremely strong & can be stronger that Titanium.
While this is true, carbon fibre is only strong so long as it doesn't suffer any deflections, so under extreme pressure Titanium will start to deform & there would have been enough warning for the Titan to start an ascent, but the carbon fibre would not deform, it would & did shatter with no warning whatsoever.
This lack of basic schoolboy understanding of the properties of these two elements is what led to the implosion.
Carbon fibre gets used for fishing rods. I've seen one snap like a carrot in one of the wider sections. We reckon it could have been a slight imperfection where it had been tapped with something with a sharp edge. No idea if that is relevant but it can certainly fail and when it does it's a big fail.
Quote from: klondike on June 23, 2023, 06:33:19 PMCarbon fibre gets used for fishing rods. I've seen one snap like a carrot in one of the wider sections. We reckon it could have been a slight imperfection where it had been tapped with something with a sharp edge. No idea if that is relevant but it can certainly fail and when it does it's a big faiI.
It's the same inherent weakness with carbon fibre road racing cycles whose frames shatter in an impact.
Metal frames deform but rarely snap whereas carbon fibre can't deform & the frame is virtually guaranteed to snap.
It's hard to believe the information that's coming out .... carbon fibre ...bolted on the outside ... scaffolding rods used as ballast.
Don't these thing shave to have safety certificates.
Apparently not.
I do feel sorry for the poor 19 year old who didn't want to do the dive but didn't want to disappoint his father.
Someone gave a simple explanation that the pressure that the craft has to withstand is similar to it having to have the Eiffel Tower standing on it.
I might try and do the maths to see if it really is this order of magnitude.
Quote from: dextrous63 on June 23, 2023, 11:04:59 PMSomeone gave a simple explanation that the pressure that the craft has to withstand is similar to it having to have the Eiffel Tower standing on it.
I might try and do the maths to see if it really is this order of magnitude.
I saw something similar involving a building if it was made out of lead.
Apparently it weighs 10,100 tons.
I wonder how many square inches the Titan was.
It surprises me that these 'adult' men passengers who, must have had some knowledge, of the vessel they were stepping into chose to continue..
No women on there.. ummm !!
Scaffolding rods used as ballast.. !!!
Their website is down. Whether they have taken it down or it is just getting more traffic that in can handle I don't know. I just wanted some info on their submersible direct from them.
Scaffolding rods for ballast!! Ridiculous.
Railway fishplates are much better.
Quote from: Scrumpy on June 24, 2023, 10:03:39 AMIt surprises me that these 'adult' men passengers who, must have had some knowledge, of the vessel they were stepping into chose to continue..
No women on there.. ummm !!
Scaffolding rods used as ballast.. !!!
Without speaking ill of the dead as they did lose their lives ... I thought the same thing.
These are intelligent clever men who have been successful in life, so must have some gumption and brains and yet they actually got into this death trap.
They were in there with the boss of the company that owned it. I suspect he was a very good salesman who didn't have to push very hard.
Quote from: Ashy on June 24, 2023, 11:42:32 AMScaffolding rods for ballast!! Ridiculous.
Railway fishplates are much better.
Lol :upvote: :grin:
However, in reality, scaffolding poles were the exactly correct items to use as ballast because the ballast was released by the all the occupants moving to one side of the vessel so it tipped & the scaffolding poles rolled off, whereas railway fishplates wouldn't.
The animation link below shows what happened to the Titan at the moment of implosion.
To give some idea of what 30 milliseconds is, a house electrical consumer unit RCD has to trip in no more than 300 milliseconds & a domestic type b MCB on a full short circuit tripping current will trip in around 40 milliseconds.
https://tinyurl.com/9she8a9y
Quote from: Diasi on June 24, 2023, 05:56:40 PMbecause the ballast was released by the all the occupants moving to one side of the vessel so it tipped & the scaffolding poles rolled off
Cuts out all that high tech nonsense for sure. I might have a go at building one myself.
Thanks Diasi. Some small mercy I guess.
Quote from: Diasi on June 24, 2023, 05:56:40 PMLol :upvote: :grin:
However, in reality, scaffolding poles were the exactly correct items to use as ballast because the ballast was released by the all the occupants moving to one side of the vessel so it tipped & the scaffolding poles rolled off, whereas railway fishplates wouldn't.
The animation link below shows what happened to the Titan at the moment of implosion.
To give some idea of what 30 milliseconds is, a house electrical consumer unit RCD has to trip in no more than 300 milliseconds & a domestic type b MCB on a full short circuit tripping current will trip in around 40 milliseconds.
https://tinyurl.com/9she8a9y
Very interesting, and I'm sure completely correct.
The good thing is that they would not have even been aware of that sudden decompression. It would have been over even before they had any idea about it.
I suppose that if you were going to die, that would have been the kindest way to go.
Quote from: JBR on June 24, 2023, 07:03:11 PMVery interesting, and I'm sure completely correct.
The good thing is that they would not have even been aware of that sudden decompression. It would have been over even before they had any idea about it.
I suppose that if you were going to die, that would have been the kindest way to go.
I still think that the large perspex viewing window failed and that would have given the occupants a few seconds of realisation of the impending doom as it started to crack.
"According to Newman, crew members on board the Titan are instructed that they can release the ballast by rocking the ship or using a pneumatic pump to knock the weights free. "If all else fails, the lines securing the ballast are designed to fall apart after 24 hours to automatically send it back to the ocean's surface," Newman added."Yes, in the first instance the occupants were required to release the ballast by rocking the Titan but if that didn't work a pneumatic pump could be tried & if that doesn't work it's a case of waiting 24 hours for the securing ropes to rot away.
Why the pneumatic pump wasn't the first option & rocking the boat the second option is a mystery to me.
Unless there was no pneumatic pump & rocking the boat was the only option, but, of course, Rush couldn't tell his passengers that was the case.
By comparison, Heath Robinson was a true design genius.
I hadn't heard of carbon fibre bike frames or the failures Diasi mentioned before but I just came across this photo...
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-309e0ff96f6be1c99f34e5548a87e382)
What were they thinking?
bloody hell! those fractured ends could be lethal
I find this thread interesting to read.. I understand most of it..
The search team are trying to find the 5 bodies but I have to question how much they really understand about the actual effects of the water pressure at that depth.
This video will give you some idea of what would happen to a human body at a depth of 300 metres but it doesn't take much imagination to work out what would happen at a depth of 3,000 metres.
The experiment was done using the body of a dead pig as their body structure is very similar to that of a human.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY3fN4N3D8
I didn't need to see that, especially before my breakfast.
I didn't look!
I have already eaten..
This is real life.. I don't think the search team will find anything.. I'm surprised that they don't already know that..
Let the dead rest.. Leave the Titanic alone.. Stop this morbid curiosity of visiting the wreck..
Reports I've seen suggest that the air within would be compressed so quickly that along with the hydrocarbons (people) the superheated content would simply explode. I doubt there will be anything left to recover. I think the truth is that nobody knows with any certainty. I guess they feel the need to try though.
Quote from: Alex on June 27, 2023, 08:35:50 AMI didn't need to see that, especially before my breakfast.
Don't tell me you watched it before you had your breakfast!!
Someone did the calcs based on compression and got a figure of around 1300C, which is about the temp of the hottest part of a candle flame. Given the time for all this to happen, I suspect that fire damage might not be the main issue, but that being crushed at 400bar would be.
Quote from: klondike on June 27, 2023, 08:47:53 AMReports I've seen suggest that the air within would be compressed so quickly that along with the hydrocarbons (people) the superheated content would simply explode. I doubt there will be anything left to recover. I think the truth is that nobody knows with any certainty. I guess they feel the need to try though.
Yes, that's exactly the case, you only have to feel how hot a bike pump can get when you're blowing up a tyre.
Bones will have survived the heat to some degree & bones can't be crushed by the water pressure at the bottom of the deepest ocean floor as none are deep enough.
It's estimated that it would take a depth of at least 35 km of water to crush bones.
However, I think it would be a case of trying to grab a few bone fragments & certainly not complete skeletons.
June 27, 2023, 09:05:20 AMQuote from: dextrous63 on June 27, 2023, 08:59:26 AMSomeone did the calcs based on compression and got a figure of around 1300C, which is about the temp of the hottest part of a candle flame. Given the time for all this to happen, I suspect that fire damage might not be the main issue, but that being crushed at 400bar would be.
Yep, what soft tissue wasn't burnt would have been liquified.
Sorry but I can't make myself watch the video either, the very thought of it wigs me out. [1060]
Quote from: Alex on June 27, 2023, 08:35:50 AMI didn't need to see that, especially before my breakfast.
They really seem to have been enjoying themselves, don't they? 🙄 😠
Diasi, would the hammer effect of the sides collapsing in not potentially crush the bones somewhat?
Also, as an aside, I saw something the other day about how the Titanic's passenger bodies had dissolved or decomposed over the last century, but their shoes haven't because of the tanning process. Weird, eh?
Quote from: dextrous63 on June 27, 2023, 11:18:58 AMDiasi, would the hammer effect of the sides collapsing in not potentially crush the bones somewhat?
Also, as an aside, I saw something the other day about how the Titanic's passenger bodies had dissolved or decomposed over the last century, but their shoes haven't because of the tanning process. Weird, eh?
The Titan wouldn't really collapse in the way that metal would, the carbon fibre would shatter rather than collapse & flatten.
I don't suppose you know who made the shoes, I'm lucky to get 10 years out of mine.
Good point. Thanks
Quote from: Scrumpy on June 27, 2023, 08:42:12 AMI have already eaten..
This is real life.. I don't think the search team will find anything.. I'm surprised that they don't already know that..
Let the dead rest.. Leave the Titanic alone.. Stop this morbid curiosity of visiting the wreck..
It's scandalous that the Titan pilot, who's the guy who bought the rights to the Titanic wreck, site was allowed to buy it in the first place.
The Titanic should be declared a grave & all exploration & retrieval of personal items belonging to the dead should be banned.
I'd like to think that these 5 have suffered the same fate as many of the Egyptian Pyramid robbers did.
Where there's muck, there's brass.
I think that must be wrong. I've checked all over the house and not found a penny. :sad:
Quote from: JBR on June 27, 2023, 10:50:33 AMThey really seem to have been enjoying themselves, don't they? 🙄 😠
Yes, it's always good if you can enjoy the science. :grin:
Quote from: dextrous63 on June 27, 2023, 12:22:47 PMWhere there's muck, there's brass.
Oi! That's our motto where I come from.
Quote from: Diasi on June 27, 2023, 01:25:15 PMYes, it's always good if you can enjoy the science. :grin:
Matt (Turd) Hancock enjoys listening and following 'The' Science according to his deposition at the Covid Cover up going on at the moment. So perhaps he could be used to test the effects of implosion on the human body? The Mariana trench 12,000 meters down, should do it!
I'd settle for 6 foot under for most of them...
Quote from: JBR on June 27, 2023, 02:24:23 PMOi! That's our motto where I come from.
Quote from: Cassandra on June 27, 2023, 04:11:57 PMMatt (Turd) Hancock enjoys listening and following 'The' Science according to his deposition at the Covid Cover up going on at the moment. So perhaps he could be used to test the effects of implosion on the human body? The Mariana trench 12,000 meters down, should do it!
:grin: