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I watched a two-part documentary called Heat Pumps - What They Mean For You, the first part was about EVs & the second part about heat pumps, with alternatives being explored.

The sheer stupidity & downright lying by the climate change lobby was breathtaking.

If you're going to say that the recent temperatures are due to man-made climate change, which is really the correct title, then it's a bit daft to say it was the hottest since 100,000 years go because it gives me the chance to ask why was it hotter 100,000 years ago.

Archaeologists aren't digging up 100,000-year-old cars & gas boilers.

Then they never explain what happens if we increase our wind & solar to provide, on paper, all the power we need & then we get a month of little or no wind & sun.

Then, if the UK does become a 100% EV & heat pump country,  there's the issue of getting the huge amount of extra power into the grid which will mean thousands of miles of pylons (underground cable is prohibitively expensive apparently) so we'll end up with a country where there will be no landscapes where the view doesn't include a turbine & a pylon.

I agree.
It is all nonsense.
Climate change?  Yes, the climate does change, and has been doing so for millions of years.  Whatever steps we take to prevent it, it will continue to do so.

As for cars, the government's silly proposal to ban ICE cars in 2030 or 2035 is utter nonsense.
At the same time, they are dragging their feet on increasing nuclear power generation, especially SMRs, which we are already capable of constructing.

Home heating is similarly poorly thought out.  In a way, I'd like to see the Conservatives remaining in government for the next two terms or more, because the outcome on all counts will result in them ending up with egg on their faces.  Lots of it!

2030 is 6½ years away. There is zero chance of the necessary infrastructure being in place by then. 

They had to fire up coal powered stations this winter just gone because they thought there was a chance that there would not be sufficient capacity and that was a relatively mild winter. Each of the next 6 years are going to see more EVs and more heat pumps. Will we be seeing more backup capacity for when the wind doesn't blow? I don't think so but those coal fired stations will be decommissioned or so I read.

There are often periods where wind is providing less than 10% of the energy being used. The grid needs more capacity yet so far as I can see all they plan to increase is demand and renewables. They said recently the target still stands. Doubtless so that it will be Labour that eventually has to move it and get any blame from those brainwashed into believing that the apocalypse is coming. 

The answer is so easy, a mix of nuclear, hydrogen & carbon capture.

Quote from: Diasi on August 07, 2023, 10:33:36 PMThe answer is so easy, a mix of nuclear, hydrogen & carbon capture.

We should have expanded our nuclear capability long ago.
We were one of the first countries to develop nuclear-powered electricity generation.

Now, the world and its mates all seem to have overtaken us!  Politicians, neither use nor ornament.

Absolutely agree - there was a smug reader's letter in the paper the other day saying how everyone should stop using cars and rely on public transport (he say that that needs improving!) The silly sod lives in Surbiton. I used to live there - excellent public transport lots of buses, fast trains - Surbiton to Waterloo in 18 minutes on the fastest. Typical townie!

Quote from: Michael Rolls on August 08, 2023, 03:10:45 AMAbsolutely agree - there was a smug reader's letter in the paper the other day saying how everyone should stop using cars and rely on public transport (he say that that needs improving!) The silly sod lives in Surbiton. I used to live there - excellent public transport lots of buses, fast trains - Surbiton to Waterloo in 18 minutes on the fastest. Typical townie!

Where we live the nearest place of any size is Lincoln, but you couldn't go to an evening function without travelling by car as you couldn't get home. 

You should just stay home. Shivering.

that's what these green idioits would prefer us to do

Yes it's all a scam. EVs may have a role but for a general purpose vehicle they are impractical whilst the petrol engine is cleaner than ever before. Hydrogen sounds good but they get it from oil using electricity. Battery constituents are bad for the environment and the miners. Windmills are unreliable and dangerous to wildlife, and apparently in Scotland they have cut down millions of trees to accommodate them.

On the other hand the climate scammers want us to believe that carbon dioxide causes the climate to change, well it doesn't. We have virtually no control over atmospheric carbon dioxide, whilst it's only a trace gas, 99.96% of it occurs naturally and yet it is essential to life. If anything, more of it would be better.

The climate is controlled by the sun, the moon, and the orbits of heavenly bodies.

very true

Quote from: Ashy on August 08, 2023, 09:43:32 AMThe climate is controlled by the sun, the moon, and the orbits of heavenly bodies.

Virtually all the energy on earth comes from the sun. There is a minor amount from heat leakage from the core which is residual and topped up slightly by radioactive decay. None of those things are remotely within our control.

How much heat that earth gains from the sun gets re-radiated into space depends mostly on the atmosphere and the greenhouse effect. It is certain that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and equally certain that humans produce some. What gets ignored is that the percentage  produced by humans is tiny and there are other greenhouse gasses. Some of those greenhouse gasses have far more impact than CO2 and are produced by natural processes such as volcanos. 

I read this the other day and didn't bother posting it as it's of minority interest here.

Massive Water and Cloud Boost From Tonga Eruption Could Explain Recent Unusual Weather Patterns

The accurate satellite record confirms that last month was an unusual weather period with higher than normal temperature recordings on both land and at sea. It was the warmest July since 1979, it tied with March 2015 for the second warmest departure from the norm and it was the warmest month for tropical land. Of course, the climate alarmists had a field day, with 'global boiling' now making an official UN appearance. Inexplicably missing from all the hysteria, however, was any mention that NASA scientists have recently confirmed that the Tonga volcanic eruption in January last year boosted water content in the stratosphere by a massive, and weather-changing, 10%.

Scientists have been shocked by the dramatic increase in water vapour spread around the globe by the Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha'apai submarine volcano. Water vapour is the most powerful of all the greenhouses gases since, unlike the others, it traps heat across a wide part of the infra-red spectrum. It accounts for about 4% of all atmospheric gases, compared to 0.04% for carbon dioxide, but its effect is relatively short-lived since it re-enters the natural hydrological cycle. Nevertheless, Tonga water vapour and its associated clouds could last in the atmosphere for a few years, and scientists suggest both temperature increases and disturbed weather patterns will continue.

A group of NASA scientists have published a paper noting Tonga's "high impact" consequences. Unlike most volcanic eruptions, Tonga released few aerosols such as dust and ash into the atmosphere which cause temporary falls in temperature. In 1815, Mount Tambora exploded on the island of Sumbawa causing widespread cooling and a subsequent "year without a summer". In Tonga's case, specific geological conditions threw vast amounts of super-heated water up to 50 kilometres into the air. Such is the "unprecedented" amounts of water involved, the NASA scientists believe it could remain in the atmosphere for serval years. The scientists say they will continue to monitor volcanic gases from this eruption, along with future ones, "to better quantify their varying roles in climate".

Lots more if anybody does want to read it - 
https://dailysceptic.org/2023/08/04/massive-water-and-cloud-boost-from-tonga-eruption-could-explain-recent-unusual-weather-patterns/

The Tonga eruption demonstrates just how impotent mankind is faced with such natural phenomena. Even more dramatic was the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa which caused a drop in winter Northen temperatures of 0.4C for a couple of years. And we have tge green lobby thinking that by making life more difficult and more expensive for all normal people in Britain somehow we wiil 'save the planet'. Idiots

Nil desperandum!

After Labour gets into government next year, and following the predictable further ruin of our country for four or five years, I have every confidence that people will finally realise that they really need to elect a competent group of people to become the next government, and of course that excludes the 'three main parties'.

Of course, so much damage will have been done to the country by then that it would be highly unlikely to restore even what we still have today.

I shall be 76 (if still here!) and Marge will be 67.  Too late to do anything about it by then, so we'll have at least had a good time for most of our lives.
Must try to be positive!

I'm positive about the future - positive that it will be disaster!

We'd only need 30 times as many windmills to support all the demand today when I grabbed this. How many more when all cars are EV and all heating is by heat pump?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y02cWtGP/wind.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Today we probably couldn't generate enough electricity from the wind no matter how many windmills we had. The Met Office surface pressure chart has no isobars over the British Isles. Not something we see very often but it happens from time to time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFPBCHPJ/Pressure-16-08-2023.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Yep. They'll need to get some AA from Amazon soon

(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZMyHDfQ/wind.png) (https://postimages.org/)

It will surely have been an excellent day for the people smugglers today. Maybe a record.

I just read this in an article. Luckily I wasn't drinking anything at the time....

The drawback of wind energy is that it is intermittent because it cannot be generated when the wind does not blow, and there is no other technology to fill in the gaps, Mr. Montford told EpochTV's "American Thought Leaders" on July  7.

There is also no way of storing energy in reserve, he added. "It's like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute and hoping that somebody invents one on the way down."

https://www.theepochtimes.com/world/in-depth-achieving-net-zero-goal-could-lead-to-energy-rationing-says-uk-activist-5436022

could not have said it better

The latest suggestion is to not have your heating on in the evenings. I suspect that this is likely to herald increased electricity pricing at peak times (ie when people, in general, need to use it).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/08/26/new-net-zero-advice-turn-heating-up-only-during-the-day/

The Climate Change Committee (CCC) said people should turn off their radiators at peak times as part of a wider drive to deliver "emissions savings".

In a document on "behaviour change" the body recommended Britons "pre-heat" their houses in the afternoon when electricity usage is lower.

It said the move would save families money, but critics suggested the real reason was that renewables will not be able to provide enough energy to cope with peak demand.

The advice is contained in the CCC's sixth "carbon budget" paper, which sets out how the U.K. should reduce its emissions between 2033-37.

It amazes me that these so-called experts & academics publish these papers that announce what anyone with a working brain cell has already worked out for themselves.

Currently, the combined electricity generated by renewables + nuclear + biomass is providing less than half the electricity being used.

So without gas powered electricity generation half of the UK's electricity usage would have to be turned off.

All you need to do is look at the National Grid: Live demand & then add up all the power being generated by renewables, nuclear & biomass.

This will show you the shortfall between supply & demand if gas & coal are taken out of the supply.

https://grid.iamkate.com

Plus the inconvenient fact that they want to massively increase electricity use with EVs and heat pumps. 

The only way the circle can be squared is by curtailing personal car use and telling us to go to bed and use lots of blankets at 7pm in winter. The reduction in car use has already started with 15 minute zones and will doubtless be extended with country wide pay per mile at exorbitant rates.

Quote from: klondike on August 28, 2023, 08:39:06 AMPlus the inconvenient fact that they want to massively increase electricity use with EVs and heat pumps.

The only way the circle can be squared is by curtailing personal car use and telling us to go to bed and use lots of blankets at 7pm in winter. The reduction in car use has already started with 15 minute zones and will doubtless be extended with country wide pay per mile at exorbitant rates.

The UK's net zero aim is nothing more than a combination of political virtue signalling combined with money-making scams for green energy spivs.

If, by some miracle, the UK did achieve net zero, we'd have reduced total global emissions by 1%.

probably not even that, as India, China and the USA between them probably produce more emissions in a day than we do in a year - and their usage shows no sign of decreasing.

It's just another way to keep us under control.

are these clowns for real? Turn off radiators at peak times? Can't they understand that peak times are when folk want their radiators on - that's why they're peak times!

There is a degree of sense in it. They are only talking about electric heat pumps which already demand a high degree of insulation. They are saying pre heat the home in off peak periods. It's what used to be done with economy 7 storage radiators. It would sort of work but is very inflexible.

Things like this just highlight what a pie in the sky the aspiration is. As Diasi has pointed out our energy use is so low relative to others that whatever we do globally will make no difference. We have exported all our energy intensive industry or rather deported it with our green subsidy high cost energy. Luckily for the planet I doubt it makes any difference what anybody does as I have stopped believing there is a huge problem caused by man. I'm not even sure if there really is a problem as so much of the data is being fiddled to make it appear that there is one.

when are the peak periods? Breakfast time, lunch time and the evenings - so, miss breakfast, shiver at lunchtime, and put your overcoat on to watch TV in the evenings after tea/dinner Rubbish idea oh, and to save the planet I now only heat the lounge and the kitchen in the winter - all other heating turned off. As the bungalow is fairly large, effectively living in two rooms is frustrating, but not a disaster

I'm not sure what the costs will be like this winter. The tariff is lower but we won't be getting the £300 taxpayer funded subsidy or at least there isn't anything announced. Probably half the house unheated and the other half still needing thick clothes. A plague upon them.

I'm not sure how 'peak times' electricity can be made more expensive.
Our electric meter flips along according to what we use regardless of the time of day, so how can they charge more if they don't know when we're using it?

Perhaps some people's metering systems work in a different way.  Smart meters?

Anyway, should electricity prices increase noticeably, we have a wood burner and that costs us only a bag of logs from the supermarket, presently priced quite cheaply.  We can burn them in the evening and at night and, as they don't create any noticeable smoke, no political police can prove that it's us who are burning them.

Smart meters were designed with variable charging in mind. Probably without a smart meter you'd get the higher rate 24x7 with the lower one being offered as in incentive to change over to a smart meter. 

Ve haff vays of making you do vat ve vant.

Economy Seven meters used to throw a mechanical switch at certain times of day, and had two sets of kWh counters (Normal and Low). I gather that so called smart meters record consumption continuously against time, so in theory the rate could vary with any time of day, or any day of the week etc. or even whether or not the wind was blowing at the time.

Quote from: klondike on August 28, 2023, 11:01:13 AMI'm not sure what the costs will be like this winter. The tariff is lower but we won't be getting the £300 taxpayer funded subsidy or at least there isn't anything announced. Probably half the house unheated and the other half still needing thick clothes. A plague upon them.

Sunak said we'd get the £300 in addition to the normal WFA when he was being interviewed a couple of days ago so I'll have to check.

I did hear a news item where someone said although the kWh rates were decreasing, the standing charges were increasing, so I'll have to keep an eye on that one.

This isn't something I got from my supplier - it came from an app which shows smart meter usage data rather better than Octopus do.


As expected, the new Energy Price Cap for households will fall 7% on 1 October 2023 (gas and electricity combined).

This means that the new capped rate you will pay from 1st October 2023 will be as set out below (with slight regional variances):

Gas Unit Rate Standing Charge VAT
1 October 2023 6.5p per kWh 28.13p per day 5%
Current Rate 7.5p per kWh 29.7p per day 5%
Electricity Unit Rate Standing Charge VAT
1 October 2023 25.35p per kWh 50.70p per day 5%
Current Rate 27p per kWh 56.76p per day 5%


So it actually shows falls in rate and standing charge but I thought I'd heard somewhere that the standing charge would be going up.

I can't see anything in google results about households getting any cashback for winter 2023/4 but did notice it was £400 not £300 last time.

Found this for Pensioners...

Pensioners
There will be a payment of £300 for pensioners on top of their Winter Fuel Payments. This will be paid during Winter 2023/2024

Quote from: klondike on August 28, 2023, 11:46:40 AMSmart meters were designed with variable charging in mind. Probably without a smart meter you'd get the higher rate 24x7 with the lower one being offered as in incentive to change over to a smart meter.

Ve haff vays of making you do vat ve vant.

Do they now?
They'd have to make a big difference before I fall for it.

I assume with smart meters they have the ability to turn off the power whenever they feel like it.  With non-smart meters, they'd have to turn off the power to the whole neighbourhood and I'm sure that there would be many protests going on.

Quote from: JBR on August 28, 2023, 07:51:37 PMWith non-smart meters, they'd have to turn off the power to the whole neighbourhood and I'm sure that there would be many protests going on.

That's exactly what they would do.

Why you should say no to smart meters

Why you should say no to getting a smart meter (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/smart-meter-why-say-no-get-one/#:~:text=The%20chief%20concern%20of%20smart,name%2C%20address%20or%20bank%20details.)

They were forcing defaulters onto prepayment meters by getting court orders to give them access to do so but iirc there was a big stink about it and I think they were stopped from doing that somehow. It had nothing to do with smart meters though. Meters need replacing eventually and I suspect that all replacement meters will be smart. 

Quote from: klondike on August 28, 2023, 09:25:30 PMThey were forcing defaulters onto prepayment meters by getting court orders to give them access to do so but iirc there was a big stink about it and I think they were stopped from doing that somehow. It had nothing to do with smart meters though. Meters need replacing eventually and I suspect that all replacement meters will be smart.

When a non-smart meter develops a fault it won't be repaired or replaced, it will be replaced by a smart meter.

Of course the householder can refuse a smart meter in which case, and quite rightly, they'll have the faulty meter removed & their electricity supply disconnected.

We had smart meters installed as soon as they became available & we've never had any issues apart from Shell Energy taking a couple of months to import our smart meters onto their system when we changed to them, so I had the unwanted hassle of having to remember to submit manual readings for those two months.

What do they do if you don't have a spare socket for the bit that gets plugged in to give you the readings?

Quote from: Raven on August 29, 2023, 10:40:01 AMWhat do they do if you don't have a spare socket for the bit that gets plugged in to give you the readings?

Fit a socket extender or run it with batteries as most displays can.

I rarely look at the display as I can easily check our readings from the phone app.

That bit is pretty much irrelevant. My smart meter stopped working when I went with a different provider so a binned the display which I wasn't using anyway. Eventually the provider I was put on after the one I was with went bust got the smart meter working again and I have no display.

The problem is the UK rushed smart meters through when the EU kicked them off before they thought things through. Each provider had mutually incompatible meters. This is the second set I'm on and it still isn't the second generation type which they all support.

Ours are still SMETS 1 meters.

I use the Loop Energy app which I find to be quite good.

August 29, 2023, 04:18:57 PM
At the moment if the UK was reliant on wind, solar, nuclear & biomass we'd be 13 GWs short of the demand so there'd be some serious power rationing.

I use the Hugo app. Octopus - my provider's site isn't up to much imo.

Quote from: klondike on August 29, 2023, 04:41:24 PMI use the Hugo app. Octopus - my provider's site isn't up to much imo.

Thanks, I'll install it & see how it compares.

Well that was easy, much quicker & simpler to register than with the Look Energy App.

Well I've found out why my renewable energy doesn't save me any money.

It's all to do with the Contracts of Difference Scheme which, when all the bullshit's stripped away, means that renewable energy is expensive to install & often doesn't generate any power.

Therefore, to address the problem of no one being willing to invest in something that often doesn't generate power & thus makes no money during down time, the Government has come up with this wheeze that allows renewable energy companies to charge the equivalent of producing power when they're not producing power.

Oh, it's no use saying "you couldn't make it up" because some tosser has.

I remember my mother and lots of others being conned over electricity. They were all told if they stopped using their coal fires and fitted in an electric fire it would be,
1-cleaner.
2- cheaper.
Guess what......Yes it was cleaner, and easier, but cost a fortune to run.

so true

Quote from: klondike on August 29, 2023, 04:41:24 PMI use the Hugo app. Octopus - my provider's site isn't up to much imo.

We have been using Outfox the Market for a few years now.
It is not one of the 'big six', but has been reliable and competitively priced throughout all of this time.

They do not demand the acceptance of smart meters, which I would always avoid, and I am quite happy to read both meters once a month and submit the readings online.  They have trusted in my honesty throughout, although of course they could look at the meters (in cabinets outside) at any time if they wanted to check.

haven't seen a meter reader since before lockdown

Quote from: JBR on August 31, 2023, 07:36:02 PMThey have trusted in my honesty throughout, although of course they could look at the meters (in cabinets outside) at any time if they wanted to check.

With most of the time during the summer months being spent at the caravan those energy bills were very low and we got very frequent "safety check" requests on the meters (in my cellar) as they clearly suspected bypassing. I got fed up with that and had smart meters fitted. As soon as we moved supplier- something I did most years chasing cheap deals and cashback they stopped working so I got some fitted by the new supplier too. When I switched supplier....  :grin:   Anyway Avros went bust and Octopus took over. They got the meters working again but I find their site to be poor for checking the smart meter data and the Hugo app does that much better.

Report: Ballooning Electric Vehicle Supply Far Outstrips Demand

Supply of electric vehicles is far outstripping demand across the domestic UK market, forcing manufacturers to cut prices in an effort to attract disinterested drivers.

The Evening Standard reports car dealership Vertu Motors revealed the lack of interest as traditionally powered vehicles maintain their stranglehold on the market for both new and used cars.

The dealership chain, with 189 sales and aftersales outlets including a number in the London commuter belt, said improved sales of new cars helped it ensure profit this year should be in line with expectations – with one exception.
When it came to electric vehicles, it said supply had ballooned in a way that did not match demand, causing many manufacturers to cut prices to move stock.

"Recent increased supply of new electric vehicles appears to be exceeding retail demand, creating an imbalance in pipeline inventory coming into the key plate change month of September," it said. "Manufacturers are reacting to this through the offer of discounted prices and supported finance rates to stimulate retail demand.

Tesla, which does not sell via dealerships, has been among the high-profile electric vehicle makers to have cut prices lately, with the cost of many of its models being slashed on multiple occasions while U.S. auto safety regulators have opened another investigation into safety problems with the vehicles.

Full story : https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/09/01/report-ballooning-electric-vehicle-supply-far-outstrips-demand/

They could give them away for free and I still wouldn't be interested in having one. :yell:

I'd have one if it came fully charged. 200 miles of free motoring can't be sneezed at. After that they are more expensive and less convenient to fuel than ICE cars and there is no way I could have a home charger - no drive and no reserved parking.

Quote from: Raven on September 02, 2023, 09:58:37 AMThey could give them away for free and I still wouldn't be interested in having one. :yell:

Me neither, I couldn't be arsed taking a very stressful EV 9 hours to do a 3 hour ICE journey.

rubbish things