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It seems the inevitable kicking forward of the 2030 deadline has started. Only a partial slippage so far but I expect more to come as there is zero possibility that 2030 could ever be met and probably this sticking plaster will come adrift too IMO.

Brussels Cancels Looming Ban on Internal Combustion Engine Cars – U.K. Government "Prepared to Follow Suit"
A looming British ban on the sale of new internal combustion engine cars was thrown into chaos on Tuesday after Brussels watered down its own restrictions amid opposition from the German auto industry. The Telegraph has more.

Experts and politicians warned that British rules due to take effect in 2030 are untenable following the European climbdown, which will allow internal combustion engines as long as they burn carbon-neutral petrol alternatives.

The European Union will now ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2035 but permit these so-called e-fuels following a backroom compromise forced on it by the German authorities and signed off on Tuesday night.

Sources suggested that Whitehall was considering following the Commission's lead by also allowing an e-fuel exemption. British carmakers Aston Martin and McLaren are already understood to be examining e-fuels as an option for powering future models.

Critics of the Government's Net Zero plans seized on the European Union's decision as evidence that a total policy rethink is needed, while campaigners including Greenpeace have said that it could slow down electric vehicle adoption. ...

The former Tory leader Sir Iain Duncan Smith said: "The 2030 deadline for the elimination of petrol and diesel engine cars in the U.K. is simply not achievable. Unless we delay, we hand a massive boost to the Chinese car manufacturers. They are already dominant."

Britain is to ban the sale of new cars that run on petrol and diesel only in seven years' time under plans drawn up by former Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

New hybrids will still be allowed until 2035, at which point the U.K. will only permit fully electric cars and other zero-emission [sic] vehicles, such as those which burn hydrogen.

The EU's e-fuel exemption will allow a synthetic alternative to petrol which is made by mixing carbon dioxide captured from the air with hydrogen obtained by splitting water molecules using renewable energy.

This is expected to be far more expensive than petrol, meaning it will initially benefit high-end carmakers whose customers will not be put off by the costs involved.

However, Benedetto Vigna, the boss of Ferrari, said this week that he expects the price to fall in coming years and experts believe it could be the thin end of a wedge that would allow carmakers to focus on producing lower-cost e-fuels instead of expensive battery powered cars.

Andrew Graves, a car industry veteran and professor at the University of Bath, said: "I think it's a very exciting technology that we're looking at, so that we can not only use it for things like motorsport, but we can also more importantly use it for keeping existing vehicles on the road. I think there's a lot of things that the Government needs to look at before it goes hell bent on just having a blanket ban on diesel or petrol."

Mr Graves added that there is already a risk that not enough electric car chargers and battery-making plants will have been built when the ban takes effect – a problem that may worsen if carmakers sense it is being watered down. ...

The Telegraph understands that the British Government is prepared to follow the EU's lead, with the Department for Transport understood to be amenable towards synthetic fuels so long as the industry can prove that they will be carbon neutral. ...

Greg Smith, a Tory MP who sits on the Transport Select Committee, said: "Groupthink has dictated battery electric to be the way forward for too long when we're already seeing the technology fail and not develop at the pace people need. The 2030 ambition isn't realistic in the first place and we need the innovators and the automotive companies to be given the time and space to produce a time and space and not just jump to the betamax that's available now."

The original story is in the Telegraph but paywalled.
This is from https://dailysceptic.org/2023/03/29/brussels-cancels-looming-ban-on-internal-combustion-engine-cars-u-k-government-prepared-to-follow-suit/

I am beginning to believe that, like the Red Queen in Alice, a prime qualification to be a politician in the UK - all and any part - is to believe six impossible things before breakfast. Given the state of our economy and infrastructure how can anyone with even half a brain - and that in sleep mode- believe 2030 was either achievable or an exercise in bloody chaos?

The cost of the e-fuel will, no doubt, be beyond the means of many who can't afford an electric car.

I'll be ok with £20 per gallon as I do a very low mileage. 

I will stick with my diesel 4x4, they will have to pry the keys out of my dead hand, I simply will not have an electric car......No thank you very much. Himself feels much the same way.

me too - I have a hybrid, but only bloody duress. The sheer stupidity of this rush to net zero, no new ICEs, etc., heat pumps, defies common sense, never mind understanding. Is terminal stupidity a prerequisite to be a politician nowadays?

I bought a new petrol one month ago...

Yes, the EU (Germany, I suppose) has ditched its bright idea for now, no doubt to the benefit of the German car makers.
Naturally, we don't have any say, partly because we are not in the EU (thankfully), but more importantly because our backward MPs still seem to believe that the world is going to end unless we become all-electric!

I, too, will never buy an electric car.  I'm 70, not in the best of health, and so either I'll buy another new ICE car before 2030, or I'll do my best to keep this one going.
Strangely, VW (like our car) is a German brand, yet has decided to go all-electric and has discontinued the Golf.

Quote from: Michael Rolls on March 30, 2023, 06:15:12 PMIs terminal stupidity a prerequisite to be a politician nowadays?

Yes. At the very least they have to believe that they will not have to live by the stupidity they wreak.

Cloud cuckoo land.  I doubt there ever was a proper intention to make it happen because it was never viable in the first place.

Who in their right mind would buy any of these, although some tosser in Gainsborough has actually got a Citroen Ami which works as a traffic calmer as it's top speed is 28mph, & that's on a flat road.

It does about 20mph on the slightest of inclines.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/top-10-cheapest-electric-cars

I am beginning to think that the government is infected with corporate insanity. Can't find the source at the moment, but yesterday I read that next year at least 22% of car manufacturers' output must be all electric. For every vehicle by which a manufacturer fails to meet this arbitrary target they will be fined £15,000. Power is going to their collective head.
The windfall tax on gas and oil producers has proven every bit as disastrous as critics warned - 90% oc companies have reduced or ceased investment in the field, citing the tax raid and uncertainty over what the government will do next.
 :wtf: does the government think it is doing - trying to ruin the country?

Quote from: klondike on March 30, 2023, 07:07:31 PMI bought a new petrol one month ago...

I wish my Yeti Girl was a petrol one. It's the only thing I don't like about it. :boo:

The ancient Peugeot 1.6 diesel I had would occasionally register 70 mpg on a run and rarely registered much less than 50 mpg overall. My petrol cars since haven't matched that.

My problem is that damn stupid dpf filter, the light is always coming on. Garage says I don't drive enough, and then I need to roar down the A9 in 3rd gear to burn the soot off. It does my head in. I think I drive plenty, over 100 miles a week.

Taxi drivers have similar issues. They solve it (illegally) by having the thing removed and the car software fiddled to get rid of the warning light  :grin: Replacing a DPF is expensive. I never had an issue with that but maybe my diesel car was built before the became compulsary. I'll see what google has to say.

Himself checked that out and the garage know a guy who will remove it for £300, but if I am in an accident my insurance will be withdrawn, and I may be reported to the police and charged. Simply not worth it. Much easier to try and get a petrol one.

I read a report in the Telegraph today that the latest bright idea by our wonderful government is to RATION the sale of petrol and diesel cars until the 2030 ban of new ICE car sales!

THe current shortage of micro chips means just about all new cars are pre-order with a long lead time. Mine was going to be 7 months but they needed to fill some quota or other and somehow let the UK have a load so long as they were all registered before the end of February. It did of course mean missing the 73 plate which will mean the resale price will be marginally down but I thought better than the wait.

I get my cars 2nd hand. Would not pay the extortionate new prices. Especially since I was told by a car salesman that the minute you drive a new car away from the forecourt, it's price halves. Disgusting trick.  :boo:

I always used to but I fancied one with no worries or unexpected bills. Plus secondhand car prices have gone through the roof because of the shortage of new cars. The world shutting down for two years for covid has buggered more than just the economy.

Yes so I believe, I got my big Yeti Girl just before Covid hit and have not actively been looking for another one BUT, I told my car guy not long ago that I want another one the same but petrol. He said no bother and will give me a call when one comes up.

I don't fancy an electric car, even if I could afford one.  A journey would take so much planning, where do you charge up being the main one.  There are two recharging bays at M & S car park, both were being used when I drove in and still occupied when I left.  How long does it take to charge an electric car ?  Would you have to sit drinking endless cups of coffee at a services waiting for the car to charge ?  beats me......

Quote from: Alex on March 31, 2023, 09:14:12 PMI don't fancy an electric car, even if I could afford one.  A journey would take so much planning, where do you charge up being the main one.  There are two recharging bays at M & S car park, both were being used when I drove in and still occupied when I left.  How long does it take to charge an electric car ?  Would you have to sit drinking endless cups of coffee at a services waiting for the car to charge ?  beats me......

A full charge can take hours, even if you can find a free and working charger.  Time for plenty of cups of coffee!

There are "high speed" chargers that can get the job done in about an hour but they are expensive (currently more expensive than fossil fuels) and in high demand so you may need to wait.

My son has two cars. One electric he uses for his  lengthy commute to work which he charges overnight  at home. That works out cheaper than a fossil fuel car. He also has a 4wd diesel which gets used mostly at weekends and always for breaks away from home.

The infrastructure simply isn't in place for electric cars to be viable as anything much more that a commuting or city car. I personally doubt it ever will be because not only will total supply need a big increase but capacity will need to be need to be upgraded street by street if each house is going to be using much more electric energy for both cars and the ludicrous heat pumps which also form a big part of the net zero fiction.

Quote from: klondike on March 31, 2023, 10:57:10 PMMy son has two cars. One electric he uses for his  lengthy commute to work which he charges overnight  at home. That works out cheaper than a fossil fuel car. He also has a 4wd diesel which gets used mostly at weekends and always for breaks away from home.

The infrastructure simply isn't in place for electric cars to be viable as anything much more that a commuting or city car. I personally doubt it ever will be because not only will total supply need a big increase but capacity will need to be need to be upgraded street by street if each house is going to be using much more electric energy for both cars and the ludicrous heat pumps which also form a big part of the net zero fiction.

Exactly why the government's airy fairy ideas will come to nothing!
Home charging, of course, can only be an option for those who have a place to park the car whilst charging.  We are lucky enough to have that option, though I would never buy an EV for the reasons you outline.

The German government has announced that it will not stop the production of ICE cars, certainly not by the suggested date of 2030 or 2035 (depending on which source you look at).  In fact, I think it is only our own  inept government who are insisting that, not only will they ban the sale of ICE cars in 2030, but that they plan to 'ration' the sale of them beginning next year!

My son in law loves his electric car, my son is considering replacing one of theirs with an electric model. Son in law has a charging point at home.  Lots of tax savings for business use.

on the BBC website yesterday Shapps was gloatingly confirming that from next year car manufacturers must make at least 22% of their output in EVs - wasn't clear whether this was pure EV or included hybrids. Any manufacturer failing to meet the target will be fined £15,000 per vehicle.
The power to control us has gone to this government's collective head - and I still feel Labour would be even worse.

Hybrids which don't have a charging plug have small batteries that achieve some energy savings by using the battery for standing starts and recovers some energy from braking. Other than that they are fossil fuel cars.

Electric cars are not viable for a sizeable proportion of the housing stock and the second hand market for electric cars will be small given the huge cost of replacing the batteries. Who will suffer? Mostly the less wealthy who likely won't have the advantage of personal transport their parents did. Maybe that is one of the goals. I doubt they could be given away once they reach 10 years old. There are lots of ICE cars far older than that now that the manufacturers bother to rust proof them when they are made. Modern oils have worked wonders for engine wear too.

My hybrid (bought under duress as the nearest approach to what I actually wanted) spends around a third or a bit more of each journey on battery power - it has two batteries  - a normal size one for - I presume - starting the engine when needed, and a bloody huge drive one in the boot, so big that it takes up more than a third of the boot and leaves no room for a spare wheel, a lack about which I worry.
It returns 49.4 mpg overall - it was a bit over 50 in the warmer days of summer, when I drove more often for pleasure several times a week, whereas now I only do so once or twice a week, the balance being only 6 or so miles a day.
I would still rather have had what I wanted - it cost a good £8,000 more than the petrol car I would have liked, had it not been taken out of production. It did 32-34 to teh gallon - and that extra £8,000 would have paid for a fair bit of petrol, even at today's prices

Can you charge it? If not then it's a petrol car despite the hybrid name.
Btw full electrics don't intrude on the boot their batteries are under the floor. The LPG/Petrol dual fuel ones use a chunk of the boot for the LPG tank.

How about fitting motorways with scalextrix type tracks?  Then you could charge your car whilst on them😬 

klondike
no, cannot be charged. It says 'hybrid' of the back and -what irritates me - every time I switch off a message appears on the dash saying 'thanks for driving a hybrid' - as though I had any bloody choice. Oh, and since Monday I have done 51 miles, 20 of them under electric power

Quote from: Raven on March 31, 2023, 02:52:35 PMMy problem is that damn stupid dpf filter, the light is always coming on. Garage says I don't drive enough, and then I need to roar down the A9 in 3rd gear to burn the soot off. It does my head in. I think I drive plenty, over 100 miles a week.

You could drive 1,000 miles a week, like taxi drivers do, & get a clogged DPF.

It's the speed of the 1,000 miles that counts as the engine has to be revving fast enough to heat the DPF which will keep it clear.

A 25 mile drive in low gear at 3/4 maximum engine revs will sort it.

Quote from: Diasi on April 01, 2023, 11:14:08 AMYou could drive 1,000 miles a week, like taxi drivers do, & get a clogged DPF.

It's the speed of the 1,000 miles that counts as the engine has to be revving fast enough to heat the DPF which will keep it clear.

A 25 mile drive in low gear at 3/4 maximum engine revs will sort it.

Or remove the DPF!
Time was that diesels were the best, even for shorter journeys...
...until 'net zero' became trendy.
I used to have a Skoda diesel (pre-DPF) and never noticed any clouds of black smoke or evil smells.  The best car I have ever had, and I kept it for many years.  The only unforeseen expense I ever suffered was the replacement of a sump plug! 
One positive outcome of disposing of it:  I received £3000 (certainly more than it was worth on re-sale), thanks to the wonderful government incentives!

The car I had before Yeti Girl was a Freelander and it was Pre filter too. Never a problem except it's age.

Quote from: Michael Rolls on April 01, 2023, 11:11:47 AMsince Monday I have done 51 miles, 20 of them under electric power

No sir. It was petrol that charged the battery so it was all petrol power. That said I thought that they ran from the batteries less than that. The extra mileage of course comes from not having petrol do the bits it does inefficiently and recharging the battery during braking rather than just heating the brake pads up.

come off it - two Mondeos - one petrol only did 32-34 to the gallon. The hybrid does just under 50. If it depended on the petrol lump totally the mpg would go down to the petrol only figure. Oh, and in electric mode the petrol engine is OFF

If the energy it uses doesn't come from the petrol there where does it come from? The technology makes it more efficient but it is still powered by petrol alone.

OK, I see what you mean. It does mean, however, that I am only using 64% as much petrol as heretofore, and there is some energy gained by regeneration, although only a few percent.

I think it isn't just regeneration. Petrol engines have sweet spots in their efficiency depending on load and speed and I imagine there is some software in the car that exploits that and uses the battery when it is more efficient and can. I have no experience of them just a very basic knowledge of how they work. If I did drive one then I'd be intrigued by just which bits of the journey were battery and which bits ICE.  I was surprise by just how much you said it was running on battery alone although I expect the engine may well be charging the battery too during those periods unless it actually shuts off.

On the subject of efficiency and anti pollution measures in new cars I find the damned stop start system infuriating in traffic and obviously pointless on the open road. Luckily my car has an easy reach button to defeat it but only for that session. Restart the car and there it is again to annoy me.

one of the clever displays shows whether the ICE or the electric is in use. One time when they are both in use is if you put your foot down really hard. I must admit that seeing that display (as was the case of the ICE Mondeo which gave a similar readout of instant MPG) does encourage economic driving!

I'll stick with our 2007 Peugeot 307 which does 25 mpg around town & up to 38 mpg max on a journey.

I'd need to do some hefty mileage in a new car before the cost was offset by a higher mpg.

Given my age and the idiocy of net zero, I do wonder if this might be my last car - makes me shudder to think

Quote from: Michael Rolls on April 02, 2023, 05:18:39 PMGiven my age and the idiocy of net zero, I do wonder if this might be my last car - makes me shudder to think

When I get into the Peugeot & drive it I can't believe it'll be 16 years old in September.

It's just as good as when we first bought it at 3 years old.

I dread the day if I can no longer drive.

The 308 diesel I has has been trouble free. I gave it to my daughter when her car had a terminal decline - a reliable car returning excellent fuel economy and on paper worth nothing. I wasn't so enamoured of the car I bought to replace it at the time which is why I swapped it for the one I have now,

Meanwhile the 308 soldiers on still. It did have a minor hiccup at the last MOT which was its first ever fail. I just checked on a really good site that gives all sorts of details about vehicles and see it was the 2021 MOT not the most recent one and it was unsurprising wear and tear given its age...

Mileage:
101,333 miles
+ 12,751 miles travelled since last MOT.
Refusal Notices
Front inner brake pad(s) less than 1.5 mm thick (1.1.13 (a) (ii)) - Dangerous
Nearside front windscreen wiper does not clear the windscreen effectively (3.4 (b) (ii)) - Major
Offside front wheel bearing rough when rotated (5.1.3 (b) (i)) - Major
Advisory Notices
Front brake disc worn, pitted or scored, but not seriously weakened (1.1.14 (a) (ii))
Nearside rear child seat fitted not allowing full inspection of adult belt ()
Tyre worn close to legal limit/worn on edge both front tyres (5.2.3 (e))

Site if anybody cares - https://totalcarcheck.co.uk/

Quote from: klondike on April 02, 2023, 06:20:31 PMThe 308 diesel I has has been trouble free. I gave it to my daughter when her car had a terminal decline - a reliable car returning excellent fuel economy and on paper worth nothing. I wasn't so enamoured of the car I bought to replace it at the time which is why I swapped it for the one I have now,

Meanwhile the 308 soldiers on still. It did have a minor hiccup at the last MOT which was its first ever fail. I just checked on a really good site that gives all sorts of details about vehicles and see it was the 2021 MOT not the most recent one and it was unsurprising wear and tear given its age...

Mileage:
101,333 miles
+ 12,751 miles travelled since last MOT.
Refusal Notices
Front inner brake pad(s) less than 1.5 mm thick (1.1.13 (a) (ii)) - Dangerous
Nearside front windscreen wiper does not clear the windscreen effectively (3.4 (b) (ii)) - Major
Offside front wheel bearing rough when rotated (5.1.3 (b) (i)) - Major
Advisory Notices
Front brake disc worn, pitted or scored, but not seriously weakened (1.1.14 (a) (ii))
Nearside rear child seat fitted not allowing full inspection of adult belt ()
Tyre worn close to legal limit/worn on edge both front tyres (5.2.3 (e))

Site if anybody cares - https://totalcarcheck.co.uk/

Thanks for the link, I've just checked ours & found it's Euro Status is 4 which makes it ULEZ compliant so should I be stupid enough to want to visit London I can enter the  ULEZ areas for free.

Despite it running really well, it's getting a new cambelt kit, which also includes a water pump, next week as although it's only done about 20,000 miles since the last one was fitted, it was 7 years ago.

It's also getting a new clutch kit as the clutch is the original one fitted when the the car was manufactured.

I wonder if my 17 year old Fiesta needs a new cambelt  :smiley: 

Depends if it is an interference engine. I had one bust on an old Sierra and even used the starter motor to shift it onto the verge. No other damage. With an interference engine a bust cambelt means buggered valves and pistons because they collide. Cambelts need replacing every 60,000 on some cars others might be 80,000. Of course yours may be old enough to have a timing chain instead but I doubt it. 

Quote from: Alex on April 03, 2023, 12:02:08 AMI wonder if my 17 year old Fiesta needs a new cambelt  :smiley: 

It depends when the last one was fitted, but if you're saying it's never had a cambelt in 17 years you could soon be finding out if it needs replacing.

It'll be at the same time that you find out your entire engine needs replacing as it's a very tight fit interference engine.

You could check that it has a cambelt as some older Fiesta engines had a timing chain.

I'm fanatical about having the cambelt replaced, at or before, the recommended interval & I'm having the perfectly working clutch changed as there has to be a good chance it will fail at some point in the not too distant future.

https://autoreplacementcosts.com/ford-fiesta-belt-chain/

Thanks for that Phil, my car is 1242 so I looked at 1.25l and year is 2005 so it looks like a Timing Belt.  Is that the same as a Cam belt ? It's never been changed as far as I know. :shocked:

I came across this on YouTube and found it interesting. No guaranteed anybody else will of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PcDSffaWo

Quote from: klondike on April 11, 2023, 08:30:16 PMI came across this on YouTube and found it interesting. No guaranteed anybody else will of course.

Interesting, it's all part of the net zero smoke & mirrors.

The green lobby use a phrase called 'zero pollution at the point of use', which means that there could be a shit-load of pollution during manufacture.

Interesting - and as I have long believed, the total picture is nothing like as straightforward as the net zero advocates would have us believe. One thing, unless I missed it, he didn't seem to factor in the energy required to produce the electricity needed to recharge an EV during its time to 'break even' - and I do wonder if India,in particular, will really be producing 'green' electricity by 2050.

You must have nodded off a bit. That was certainly mentioned. India even got special mention as taking far longer to achieve break even on emissions saved in usage over manufacturing extra emissions because most of India's electricity is produced from coal as is true for a few other places.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrdkNqGH/ecind.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

IMO there are at least two things that mean we won't be making the 2030 target - no sign of any of the work being done fast enough on the power grid or charging infrastructure. The power grid faces a double whammy with the heat pump target. The other is the scramble for lithium for the batteries not to mention rare earths for other aspects of electric only cars.

If they persist in the sales ban it just means that old cars will be kept going and the ones that are likely to survive longest are big old diesels.

I didn't nod off and my puzzlement was based on the fact that with the much higher average mileage in the USA, break even came sooner than elsewhere even though they would have to recharge much more often - and their batteries would wear out sooner.
Agree with you about the idiotic 2030 target

It's simple maths. Given similar amounts of carbon produced for the electricity the break even point comes at a particular mileage. The Yanks do a higher mileage so they reach that break even point much quicker. If you just left an electric car parked you'd never reach break even.

If you want to be really bamboozled watch some of Arvin Ash's videos on quantum mechanics and he hardly mentions the maths (thankfully).

If we dug up all of the roads and converted them to canals, we could revert to sail power. :yay: :yay:

Sadly just as polluting as electric when the wind don't blow it's horses - methane + a trip hazard. 💩💩💩💩

Wouldn't need horses if we built canals on an incline.  Surf all the way. 

They never thought of that back in the day...

Must be something to do with electric cars, but I can't get over the price of second hand cars now, 57% increase accordingto the AA.  If my old girl finally gives up the ghost, it'll have to be the bus for me. :angry:

The reason is the shortage of new cars because semiconductor chips are in short supply and modern cars are full of the things to meet the various safety and emissions requirements.

https://totallossgap.co.uk/blog/post/why-is-there-a-shortage-of-new-cars/559#:~:text=Semiconductor%20shortage%20to%20'outlast'%20Covid,parking%20cameras%20and%20power%20steering.

Quote from: Alex on April 03, 2023, 10:53:19 AMThanks for that Phil, my car is 1242 so I looked at 1.25l and year is 2005 so it looks like a Timing Belt.  Is that the same as a Cam belt ? It's never been changed as far as I know. :shocked:

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Yes, the correct name for a cam belt is timing belt.

Quote from: klondike on April 12, 2023, 03:34:21 PMThe reason is the shortage of new cars because semiconductor chips are in short supply and modern cars are full of the things to meet the various safety and emissions requirements.

Are you suggesting that this delay in delivery of new cars is creating a shortage of second hand car availability, thus driving prices higher?  Makes sense.

Exactly that. 

I was looking for a change of cars and the secondhand prices pushed me to a cheap new car as at least they come with a decent warranty.  I was lucky as the 7 month lead time was chopped on some sort of targets drive. I got what I ordered so long as I took it in just a few days before the end of March. It meant I missed on the 23 plate which didn't matter to me but will probably reduce the eventual resale value.

Apparently one of our local car dealers dosen't want to sell electric cars any more. 

Quote from: Jacqueline on April 13, 2023, 10:52:11 AMApparently one of our local car dealers dosen't want to sell electric cars any more.

After them all jumping on the bandwagon, it is a relief to see that the prediction (others and I have made) about EVs being a flash in the pan is coming to pass.

Several reasons for the lack of interest.
- Outrageous cost.
- Limited range.
- Lack of charging points.
- Forthcoming end of free Road Tax.
- Forthcoming electricity shortages.
- etc, etc.
Some wokies are also beginning to realise that EVs are nowhere near their green predictions, especially if manufacturing is included.

Over the longer term they probably will be the vehicle of choice as fossil fuels become less readily available but there are too many issues for them to be mainstream yet for sure. The truth is that oil is far to valuable chemically to just burn quite apart from any pollution that produces.

Quote from: klondike on April 13, 2023, 04:29:09 PMOver the longer term they probably will be the vehicle of choice as fossil fuels become less readily available but there are too many issues for them to be mainstream yet for sure. The truth is that oil is far to valuable chemically to just burn quite apart from any pollution that produces.

No doubt.
However, if all the oil we are sitting on is becoming so expensive, why are we just leaving it there and not extracting it and making lots of money?

government lack of a grown-up energy policy