Many years ago thieves did over the Argos shop..
The police, with sniffer dogs, search the surrounding area.. nothing found..
My friend ,who worked in another shop , later that day went to put rubbish in their bins.. He found 14 thousand wrapped up in a black bag.. The police, with dogs, had already searched this area..
None of the money could be traced back to the Argos store.. all used notes..
A fair bit of money back then.. Very tempting..
I had coffee with Shaun on Friday and we spoke of this incident.. He was the person who found the money.. He handed it over to the police..
Looking back he often wonders if he should have kept quiet..
What would you have done..?
Read about this recently. Finders keepers isn't legally acceptable, and hanging it into the police is the best course of action. If nobody claims it then it will be returned to you, the finder.
As it is, if you are caught with stolen money, then you might actually be putting yourself in the frame for the crime. Best to be honest and sleep with a clear conscience, IMHO.
Quote from: dextrous63 on April 21, 2024, 09:13:52 AMRead about this recently.
If nobody claims it then it will be returned to you, the finder.
Is this still true today I wonder.
I think I would also hand it over to the police, begrudgingly.
Quote from: Alex on April 21, 2024, 09:45:24 AMIs this still true today I wonder.
I doubt it.
Handing it over to the police and eventually it will find its way into the government coffers.
Can't for the life of me find the recent article explaining it. Where's Cass when we need him?
Quote from: JBR on April 21, 2024, 11:04:05 AMI doubt it.
Handing it over to the police and eventually it will find its way into the government coffers.
Surely it will go back whence it came - to Argos? The finder should be rewarded for his honesty.
Had he kept it and the Police found out, he could have been accused of being part of the gang and been gaoled.
On the other hand - had he kept it and the thieves found out - he could have been killed!
I would keep it.
Quote from: dextrous63 on April 21, 2024, 09:13:52 AMRead about this recently. Finders keepers isn't legally acceptable, and hanging it into the police is the best course of action. If nobody claims it then it will be returned to you, the finder.
As it is, if you are caught with stolen money, then you might actually be putting yourself in the frame for the crime. Best to be honest and sleep with a clear conscience, IMHO.
I agree with this ^ ^
Theft by finding? I'd hand it in. 😬
Quote from: Vlad on April 21, 2024, 01:39:17 PMI would keep it.
And therein lies a truthful man....
Quote from: GrannyMac on April 21, 2024, 02:08:38 PMTheft by finding? I'd hand it in. 😬
Petty offence. Not as if it's misgendering or some other similar hate crime so I doubt it would be investigated.
I really don't know what I'd do. Taking the moral high ground is easy but would a bagful of cash trump that. I think in my case it maybe could.
If you keep it you are stealing.....but it is decision you can only make when you are confronted with it.
I like to think I would hand it in, but until I am in that position, it would be wrong of me to announce what I would do.
When I was younger I probably would hand it in.. for fear of being caught..
Now I am older.. I don't really know.. It would have to be a secret taken to the grave.. Couldn't risk telling anyone..
It certainly would be very tempting..
They were small time villains ... I suppose you could call them rogues.. No knives or guns back then where I lived..
It would have paid for my roof repairs.. :wink:
Quote from: dextrous63 on April 21, 2024, 12:34:07 PMCan't for the life of me find the recent article explaining it. Where's Cass when we need him?
The Theft Act of 1968 states that theft is applicable if one "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another".
This categorises anything owned by another person or body, including cash, continuing to belong to its original owner unless it has been "genuinely abandoned".
For instance, cash being dropped in the street does not necessarily mean it has been abandoned, and it is up to the person finding the cash to be sure that the owner is untraceable.
Say cash was dropped or misplaced, the burden of responsibility to prove the rightful owner cannot be found, lies with the 'finder'.
In all cases
(no matter the amount) the cash should be handed into a Police Station in the first instance. The finder can then claim the item, if it not re-united to the rightful owner within 28 days.
Proving something was stolen is fact-specific, i.e. it is a matter of credibility determination. The more evidence you have the better. There is no route one, to determine
"How do I prove it?"You can file an action
in replevin (n. under Common Law, the right to bring a lawsuit for recovery of goods improperly taken by another), if you believe the person still has the item stolen and you want it back. If they do not have it, you can then file an action for conversion. You can file a complaint alleging both counts
(conversion and replevin) in the alternative.
Cash has no conscience, therefore it's reasonable to assume that the amount stolen in the highlighted case was the property of the robbed shop that same day. Remember again, the finder has to prove any claimer's right to be foundless beyond any reasonable doubt, before assuming possession. In most cases a large cash robbery such as this would have yielded an automatic
'reward' for it's revelation to the finder, which normally assuages any desire to - 'stash the cash' - illegally.
If you decide to keep something you find and not to disclose it, thats a morality judgement, but it is one taken illegally. I remember one tragic case I adjudicated upon in particular. A nine year old boy had discovered a loaded .38 pistol in a ditch, whilst hunting for newts. Innocently he'd played with it (thinking it a toy) and in a game of 'cops & robbers' innocently shot his 6 year old brother (who fortunately survived).
'non armenta minantur bene' - not all things bode well.
Thanks Cass. Really appreciate the explanation/clarification.
Glad that you finished with a not entirely unhappy anecdote.
Actually Dex a couple of months before I emigrated I was stopped on Liverpool Street Station, awaiting a train on Platform 19 by a young man, who shook my hand. In fact we went and had a glass or three in nearby 'Dirty Dick's'! He had been the 9 year old I referred to. His brother (who worked at the Station with him) joined us breaking his shift for an hour, by special dispensation from the Station master. Sometimes millimetres can really matter ...
That was nice Cass.
You are correct. Micro events can lead to macro outcomes.
We met up with a friend of that superb actor Patrick McGoohan, (The Prisoner / Danger Man etc) whilst we were with friends, up the Lake at Xmas. She was his well known friend and adviser for many decades. She recalled how close as friends McGoohan and Peter Falk were, indeed Patrick directed quite a few episodes of 'Columbo' as well as starring in some. Both were great pranksters. Patrick left 'false dog poo's' in Columbo's shoes and on his chair on the set for example, when the dog first appeared, as Falk thought it was a mistake to pair him with this solumn faced canine. However the dog loved a drink, so the three of them (McGoohan, Falk & Bassett) became inseparable when they were all together either on or off camera.
Said that Peter Falk was one of the most wonderfully uncomplicated people you could ever hope to meet and that came to love 'Dog' as they called him in the series. The original creature unfortunately died not long after his introduction. She said Peter Falk rang Patrick wet-eyed to break the news, as he "really loved that stoopid mutt".
She revealed some other wonderful stuff too about this former IRS civil servant accountant, turned acting genius as 'Columbo' who loved Britain, the UK and of course Dogs!
Great stories Cass, keep 'em coming :upvote: :grin:
Quote from: Alex on April 21, 2024, 07:11:25 PMGreat stories Cass, keep 'em coming :upvote: :grin:
Forgot to add Alex, the former 9 year old (then in his late twenties, when we re-met) said he remembered being terrified that I would lock him up for 30 years and even dreamt about it, as his schoolfriends told him he was guilty of attempted murder! I didn't recall it nor the fact that I'd seen him in 'camera' (I'd forgotten) as he'd also unknowingly seen the men who discarded the gun and robbery spoils from a car). He recalls I gave him a wink and a 'Mickey Mouse Watch' after the trial and had addressed him 'Wotcha Cock'!
Funny all those years later how one event triggers another (Macro outcome as Dex so rightly says). Also how my face must have lived in his mind. He told me in parting, how horrified he was though when "I took my hair off to bend down to speak with him"!
Lovely story Cass. Especially the bit about taking your hair off🤣🤣
Good to read of your memories Cassandra..
Always interesting..
Quote from: Scrumpy on April 22, 2024, 06:55:38 PMGood to read of your memories Cassandra..
Always interesting..
I agree.
Some very interesting 'cases', which I am not surprised to hear because many court cases must be particularly interesting.
Of course, never having been in court (I'm proud to say), probably because I have been very careful - or lucky!
I have only been in court once.. Many years back.. To obtain a divorce..
I remember catching a Greenline bus heading for the London Courts..
The bus was running a bit late.. I had to jump off the bus and grab a taxi..
My solicitor and a man in a wig plus black gown were waiting..
Horrible place.. Most intimidating... Standing in the witness box.. I was no Marlene Dietrich with a veil over my face.. Just a village lass.. With her mum in tow..
Never been. Probably too old for jury service now too and was never asked.
Quote from: klondike on April 23, 2024, 09:42:45 AMNever been. Probably too old for jury service now too and was never asked.
I wonder what the cut-off age is. I'm 72 in August, but I'm not sure whether I can wriggle out of it.
Perhaps I'm nowhere near as old as you.
It's 71 in Scotland.
I have never been in court but I have been in jail.
Quote from: Vlad on April 23, 2024, 12:33:08 PMI have never been in court but I have been in jail.
I got a phone call around 2am from the police around 30 years ago, they had picked up my son on his way home from the dancing.....or whatever his generation called it. Himself and another lad were rowing and near to the blows bit, when the police spotted them and arrested them. I had to go down and bail the young scunner out, I was boiling, give him his due he never did it again.....or never got caught.
Just checked and it was raised from 70 to 75 in England and Wales in 2016. I'm 75 in December so I could still get called but haven't so far so i'm reckoning the odds are that I won't be,
Quote from: Raven on April 23, 2024, 01:07:02 PMI got a phone call around 2am from the police around 30 years ago, they had picked up my son on his way home from the dancing.....or whatever his generation called it. Himself and another lad were rowing and near to the blows bit, when the police spotted them and arrested them. I had to go down and bail the young scunner out, I was boiling, give him his due he never did it again.....or never got caught.
Never got caught again more than likely 😀😀
Quote from: Vlad on April 23, 2024, 01:30:11 PMNever got caught again more than likely 😀😀
Aye, Dave was no angel back then. :rolleyes:
I remember the police coming to my door . 'We are holding Harry in the cells overnight.. Just for his own safety.. thought you would like to know'
Harry was my first husband.. Well known in the town and around the pubs..
How different the police were back then..
Quote from: klondike on April 23, 2024, 01:27:31 PMJust checked and it was raised from 70 to 75 in England and Wales in 2016. I'm 75 in December so I could still get called but haven't so far so i'm reckoning the odds are that I won't be,
I think if I got called, I'd pretend to be doolally.
They'll politely tell me that I shall not be needed.
Er, hang on. Do they pay you 'expenses' for attending?
Quote from: JBR on April 23, 2024, 06:31:11 PMI think if I got called, I'd pretend to be doolally.
Oddly I'd been thinking the same thing. Shouldn't be hard :grin:
I retired at age 70 from the upper echelons nearly ten years ago now. The punctilious suits then raised this to back to 75 o fit in with Jurists. In truth they had few enough to fill the benches as it was and were force to admit same!
But do they pay expenses to jurors?
I am a very busy retired person who, thanks to my wife's demands, find difficulty in setting aside time for extra-familial duties outside of the home.
Quote from: klondike on April 23, 2024, 01:27:31 PMJust checked and it was raised from 70 to 75 in England and Wales in 2016. I'm 75 in December so I could still get called but haven't so far so i'm reckoning the odds are that I won't be,
I was called last year, but I was too old, so declined. I'd have done it if I had been younger.
I was called but was too old. Veronica was called and we had to get a GP's letter confirming that her disability made it impractical for her to attend.
Actually, I can well understand that they prefer to call up older people.
Generation Z are all like little children now, so they'd be stupid to put them on a jury.
I would love to do jury service..
A nice juicy case.. like an MP or Royal found in a fast woman's boudoir tied to the knobs of a brass bed ...
Wearing a tutu and lipstick.. Squealing with delight..
The police being called because of the disturbance..
Cassandra.. In your very interesting court cases have you attended any similar to this.?
Please tell..
Quote from: Scrumpy on April 24, 2024, 05:20:50 PMI would love to do jury service..
A nice juicy case.. like an MP or Royal found in a fast woman's boudoir tied to the knobs of a brass bed ...
Wearing a tutu and lipstick.. Squealing with delight..
The police being called because of the disturbance..
Cassandra.. In your very interesting court cases have you attended any similar to this.?
Please tell..
You're absolutely right.
If it was the trial of an 'appropriate' person, I'd love to participate.
I'd definitely vote for imprisonment, or better still the noose, even without bothering to hear any evidence!
😠😠😠
Quote from: klondike on April 24, 2024, 09:01:00 AMWhat exactly happened?
I got a letter calling me for jury service. Wrote back that I was 78 - end of story got an acknowledgement that I was not liable,
Ah so they'd messed up.
I was 76. You'd think they'd know!
same here - right hand, left hand syndrome
Maybe they only have electoral roll data.
Quote from: Scrumpy on April 24, 2024, 05:20:50 PMI would love to do jury service..
A nice juicy case.. like an MP or Royal found in a fast woman's boudoir tied to the knobs of a brass bed ...
Wearing a tutu and lipstick.. Squealing with delight..
The police being called because of the disturbance..
Cassandra.. In your very interesting court cases have you attended any similar to this.?
Please tell..
Quite a few Scrumps, but only as the defence advocate. One was a divorce where the husband had joined a cross-dressing circle and his wife had 'discovered' his participation impedimenta, hidden in the garden shed. In the court she adversely commented on his choice of underwear, particularly a 'front fastening bra. A dominating, brassy lady of voluminous figure she was very similar to Mr's Fox on
Dad's Army. "Their very mossy" she commented, "he could have taken one of mine - so much better and as for six tongued suspenders" - "I felt ashamed to know a husband of mine had turned up like that"
The Judge asked her if she had any other
recommendations "perhaps Lipstick, his was so violent". He also asked that if her spouse had dressed more to her taste would she have approved.
"Well of course" she responded, "people obviously thought they were my things".
"Yes, most distressing" his honour replied, with just the right air of sarcasm.
Quote from: JBR on April 23, 2024, 09:27:33 PMBut do they pay expenses to jurors?
Yes for Food, drink and travel expenses, loss of earnings. Care and childcare expenses. But no payment for being there, like an appearance fee etc.
April 25, 2024, 02:25:28 PMQuote from: GrannyMac on April 23, 2024, 10:58:39 PMI was called last year, but I was too old, so declined. I'd have done it if I had been younger.
Most people enjoy it GM. Some a bit too much. A few ladies in the 'Public Galleries' are also very enthusiastic attendees and advocates could develop 'groupies', over the years. In my time usually wealthy, single females of a certain age, who populated such areas, like others would attend football matches. They learn where their favourite advocates are appearing, where they lunch etc and just happen to have a
nearby table etc.
One such at 'The Bailey' took to sending me little notes, referring to "how neat my wig was" etc and other more 'personal' criteria - with kisses on the bottom!
I appeared once for a colleague in Chambers who'd had a whole case of attempted rape feloniously created by one such woman, just to sit near him during the poor chap's trial.
The whole charade collapsed on the third day, costing the country a fortune ...
Quote from: Cassandra on April 25, 2024, 02:16:21 PMYes for Food, drink and travel expenses, loss of earnings. Care and childcare expenses. But no payment for being there, like an appearance fee etc.
Thanks.
Well, paid for food and drink, OK, but I doubt it would stretch to a five-star restaurant dinner.
Loss of earnings? I don't earn anything any more, so I suppose I wouldn't qualify. No children to care for, and my dear wife can care for herself.
No. Unless it's a juicy murder or rape, I'll pass, and I understand that some trials can drag on in perpetuity!
Quote from: JBR on April 25, 2024, 02:43:35 PMThanks.
Well, paid for food and drink, OK, but I doubt it would stretch to a five-star restaurant dinner.
Loss of earnings? I don't earn anything any more, so I suppose I wouldn't qualify. No children to care for, and my dear wife can care for herself.
No. Unless it's a juicy murder or rape, I'll pass, and I understand that some trials can drag on in perpetuity!
Yes they're the good ones, plenty of 'refreshers' ...