How do you feel about this, ?
Tawanda Muyeye from Zimbabwe plays his cricket in Uk, the ECB has said they will fast track his British citizenship bid so that he can play for England. I know nothing about cricket so perhaps this is the norm, but is it really 'cricket' old boy ?
not to my mind, but the qualification rules to play for a country are, to my mind, a bit off.
Quote from: Alex on July 05, 2023, 08:06:30 AMHow do you feel about this, ?
Tawanda Muyeye from Zimbabwe plays his cricket in Uk, the ECB has said they will fast track his British citizenship bid so that he can play for England. I know nothing about cricket so perhaps this is the norm, but is it really 'cricket' old boy ?
Depends how good a player he is 😉
Quote from: Alex on July 05, 2023, 08:06:30 AMHow do you feel about this, ?
Tawanda Muyeye from Zimbabwe plays his cricket in Uk, the ECB has said they will fast track his British citizenship bid so that he can play for England. I know nothing about cricket so perhaps this is the norm, but is it really 'cricket' old boy ?
I'd rather see a surgeon fast-tracked rather than someone whose only contribution, if you can even call it that, to the UK is to whack a ball with a piece of wood, or throw a ball at several pieces of wood.
agreed
It used to be South Africans, the Smith brothers, Lamb, Grieg and Zimbabweans such as Hick.
It is wrong.
My take -as with a number of experts in field, is that what matters is were someone learned their cricket - a couple of examples - Freddie Brown, an England skipper in the fifties, was born is South America somewhere whilst his father was working there. Both parents were English and returned to the UK when Freddie was a child and he grew up, and learned his cricket, here. Phillipe Edmonds, similar story except, from memory, his father worked in Europe somewhere when Phil was born, but again he grew up and learned his cricket here - can't call anyone offhand to mind - but there have been folk born to Forces during overseas postings - again, fine by me. Hick, on the other hand, played international cricket for Zimbabwe - as Zimbabwe wasn't a Test nation at the time, it was deemed to be OK to regard him as England qualified - personally, I disagree. The Smith brothers had English parents so were seen as England qualified even though born in RSA. I'm ambivalent over them. Many sports regard one's parents as qualifying one for their country, and, unlike Hick, neither brother played for any other nation regardless of status.
Moving from cricket, to my mind one of the worst examples of this sort of thing is the female runner, Zola Budd. Born in RSA, moved with her parents to to UK already a young adult and successful competitor, had citizenship rushed through, and competed for the UK at the 1984 Olympics. At the time the RSA was banned from international sport. Then the ban was lifted and Miss Budd competed in the 1992 Olympics - for the RSA!
Colin Cowdrey was born in India. If you have English parents and were educated in England then you're English wherever you were born.
absolutely - thanks, I had forgotten about Colin, and of course that is true about many men and women in the days of Empire and beyond
The list is endless, Ted Dexter was born in Italy, Alan Lamb, South Africa, the one who caused a lot of controversy was Basil D'Oliveira. Born in Cape Town he gained British Citizenship and first played for England in 1966, his inclusion against his country of birth South Africa in 1968, saw the series cancelled and the banishment of that Country until 23 years later in 1991.
Even Ben Stokes has to own up to New Zealand, the full list as (not including the above is);
Tony Greig, Ian Greig, Chris Smith, Robin Smith, Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Jonathan Trott, Nick Compton, Michael Lumb, Jason Roy, Keaton Jennings, Tom Curran, Brydon Carse, K.S. Ranjitsinhji, Teddy Wynyard, Richard Young, Neville Tufnell, Douglas Jardine, Duleepsinhji, Nawab of Pataudi Sr. Errol Holmes, Norman Mitchell-Innes, George Emmett, Colin Cowdrey, John Jameson, Bob Woolmer, Robin Jackman, Nasser Hussain, Vikram Solanki, Min Patel
Johnnie Clay, Robert Croft, Jeff Jones, Tony Lewis, Austin Matthews, Hugh Morris, Gilbert Parkhouse, Pat Pocock, Greg Thomas, Maurice Turnbull, Cyril Walters, Steve Watkin, Allan Watkins, Simon Jones, Alan Jones, Phil Salt
Billy Murdoch, John Ferris, Sammy Woods, Albert Trott, Gubby Allen, Adam Hollioake, Ben Hollioake, Jason Gallian, Tim Ambrose, Sam Robson Mike Denness, Gavin Hamilton, David Larter, Gregor MacGregor, Ian Peebles, Eric Russell, Dougie Brown, Peter Such, Sir Tim O'Brien, Frederick Fane, Ed Joyce, Eoin Morgan, Graeme Hick, Paul Parker, Gary Ballance
Donald Carr, Paul Terry, Chris Lewis, Monte Lynch, Norman Cowans, Devon Malcolm, Derek Pringle, Jamie Dalrymple, Andy Caddick, Ben Stokes, Usman Afzaal, Owais Shah, Lord Harris, Pelham Warner, Wilf Slack, Neil Williams, Phil Edmonds, Neal Radford, Amjad Khan, Phillip DeFreitas, Dermot Reeve, Geraint Jones, Freddie Brown and Joey Benjamin.
I don't believe people should be able to play for a Country they have never lived in. Of course we created a Nation of historic un-godly's when we sent our former criminals to Australia and it has come back to bite us. We should have expected nothing less :boo:
I know most of you have no time for football, but I'm pretty sure to play for England you have to be English and I hope it stays that way :upvote:
Not many Mancunians playing for either City or United though are there? With top level football dominated by imports it's hardly any wonder that the national team is so crap.
Quote from: Alex on July 05, 2023, 10:45:08 PMI know most of you have no time for football, but I'm pretty sure to play for England you have to be English and I hope it stays that way :upvote:
I love football Alex and avidly watch The Premier League over here at all sorts of odd times. 'Soccer' is very popular in the 'States' too. I know many players could have represented alternate countries apart from England, due to mixed parentage. Many picked say Wales or Scotland, figuring they'd get many more caps and therefore earn a lot more 'cert' international money over relatively short careers.
Quote from: GrannyMac on July 05, 2023, 08:31:46 AMDepends how good a player he is 😉
Originates from Zimbabwe, now aged 22 and is considered very talented. Won a scholarship to 'Eastbourne School' and created all sort of new records whilst there. Plays for Kent and 'The Oval Invincibles' in 'The Hundred Competition' and is definitely one for the future. His status is currently 'indefinite leave to stay', so he can apply for British Citizenship.
Good luck to him, I say and his story is an example of why when my father said "Cricket will provide you with every lesson you'll need in life" he was right.
I remember Niall telling me some years ago that on that particular Saturday Aston Villa had fielded a side without a single England qualified player in it
Mike Denness was born in Scotland and still captained England.....badly.
always felt sorry for him tasked with leading England against an Australian side featuring Lillee, Thompson and Walker in their pomp (and their batsmen weren't too shabby either). I very much doubt that anyone else would have done any better
This is the worst batting display by an English team I have ever seen.They are playing 20/20 shots in a Test match.
Australia are being given the series, my father will be turning in his grave.
have to agree - about what are they thinking? A bit more common sense with the bat and we could be looking at England going three up with two to play instead of (just about certainly) the reverse
well, to my considerable surprise, and despite Root, Stokes and Bairstow - the players most likely to score heavily - all failing with the bat, England won by three wickets, so the series is still theoretically live.
Australia must be kicking themselves, they had us by the short and curlies , not a deserved win.
Quote from: 1955vintage on July 09, 2023, 04:28:46 PMAustralia must be kicking themselves, they had us by the short and curlies , not a deserved win.
I disagree, it was Stokes commanding innings (again) and such as Wood's mini cameo's in both innings, plus superb bowling from the latter, Woakes and Moeen that got us there. If we had won the last test and the one before in a similar fashion you could say that Australia triumphed by England's mistakes.
Personally I don't really care that much who wins or loses, all three games have been compelling to watch, with wonderful entertainment and individual performances: albeit the Lords performance was traduced in the dereliction of the Bairstow dismissal assaulting the spirit of the game.
Cricket is a match of tactics and fast changing circumstance, designed over a five day period to extend both.
Well played both sides and congratulations to Ben Stokes and his squad.
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 09, 2023, 03:44:38 PMwell, to my considerable surprise, and despite Root, Stokes and Bairstow - the players most likely to score heavily - all failing with the bat, England won by three wickets, so the series is still theoretically live.
Mike hello, Ben top scored with 80 in the first innings :worried: I would have thought you of all people being a speedball fan would have loved Woods magnificent 1st inning haul. A spell of real blistering speed. We've been asking over here, for someone to blow Khawaja away, He's good against fast medium swing, but Woods extra yard showed him up. Woakes as well really bowls a heavy ball cross seam and we sat, truly delighted by the way he shocked the Aussie top end.
Wood reminds me a lot of the great Harold Larwood both in build and action. I can only recall Devon Malcolm's destruction of South Afria in '94 as being it's English equal. Woakes in particular and Moeen too, all contributed with the ball and Broad as always bowled intelligently, cleverly picking up the pieces promulgated by the shock & panic a Woods severe assault causes in a dressing room. Due to the location of Headingley and it's Pennine dominated climate, very often the ball is in charge there. We just did it a shade batter.
Quote from: 1955vintage on July 06, 2023, 08:44:05 AMMike Denness was born in Scotland and still captained England.....badly.
Denness captained England on 19 occasions, winning six, losing five and drawing eight matches, (32% win result). Not the worse by a long way for essentially an attacking Captain. History seems committed to see him relatively unkindly, but his period included some really stiff opposition sides including the great Windies combinations and Lillee & Thompson at their pomp. The greatest England captain Mike Brearley only managed a win ratio of 58%.
Don't forget Brian Close - captained 7 times, won 6, drew one - although I agree that Brearley was the best captain in my memory.
Loved Wood's bowling - up to 96.5 in the first innings, and his slowest delivery of that spell was faster than anything England sent down in the first two Tests. Such a change to see the fastest bowler in the match playing for England, not Australia. Just hope he stays fit for the next two.
Yes, Stokes' knock in the first innings was great - I was commenting on the second innings performances - Root 21, Stokes 14, Bairstow 5 - just 39 runs between them.
Since his fine century in the first innings of the first Test, Root seems to have struggled. In the first Test he got 118* and 46, but since then 10,18,19 and 21. In fact, his 40 runs in this Test were equaled by Mark Wood.
Loved the continuing saga of Broad v Warner - got him in both innings, 4 and 1. I think that is 17 times now that Broad has got him in Tests.
Devon Malcolm - I was driving to, or from, a meeting with the car radio on - couldn't believe my ears! 9-59!
Back in the days when cricket actually appeared on terrestrial TV, I remember him getting one of the WI openers - can't remember if it was Haynes or Greenwich with a very fast full toss which hit leg stump - totally beaten for pace
Quote from: 1955vintage on July 09, 2023, 04:28:46 PMAustralia must be kicking themselves, they had us by the short and curlies , not a deserved win.
Why not 'deserved'? You might as well say that Australia's two wins were not deserved as they relied on mistakes by England - oh, and I am not saying that was the case - they just played that bit better
and the victory was achieved despite Stokes not being able to bowl art all, and Robinson unable to bowl in the second innings.
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 10, 2023, 05:28:42 AMDon't forget Brian Close - captained 7 times, won 6, drew one - although I agree that Brearley was the best captain in my memory.
Loved Wood's bowling - up to 96.5 in the first innings, and his slowest delivery of that spell was faster than anything England sent down in the first two Tests. Such a change to see the fastest bowler in the match playing for England, not Australia. Just hope he stays fit for the next two.
Yes, Stokes' knock in the first innings was great - I was commenting on the second innings performances - Root 21, Stokes 14, Bairstow 5 - just 39 runs between them.
Since his fine century in the first innings of the first Test, Root seems to have struggled. In the first Test he got 118* and 46, but since then 10,18,19 and 21. In fact, his 40 runs in this Test were equaled by Mark Wood.
Loved the continuing saga of Broad v Warner - got him in both innings, 4 and 1. I think that is 17 times now that Broad has got him in Tests.
Devon Malcolm - I was driving to, or from, a meeting with the car radio on - couldn't believe my ears! 9-59!
Back in the days when cricket actually appeared on terrestrial TV, I remember him getting one of the WI openers - can't remember if it was Haynes or Greenwich with a very fast full toss which hit leg stump - totally beaten for pace
Gordon Greenidge Mike a great batsman, but both he and Desmond Haynes never played against Devon (they are too far back for him)? You might be thinking of Hansie Cronje we believe, who batted no.3 for South Africa that day of destruction 29 years ago? Devon Malcolm is actually one of the nicest and quietest people I've ever met and still plays to this day.
The South Africans made the mistake of 'bouncing' and sledging him
(as was their want under the convicted cheating Captaincy of the above) - Devon told them, as he left the field - 'you guys are toast'!
He was as good as his word!
July 10, 2023, 05:17:51 PMQuote from: Michael Rolls on July 10, 2023, 07:18:08 AMand the victory was achieved despite Stokes not being able to bowl art all, and Robinson unable to bowl in the second innings.
Hopefully they'll replace Johnny B behind the stumps, he's making far too many mistakes and missed opportunities. We need the Worlds best keeper Ben Foakes and he's as good a batsman as any (bar Joe). Also because we are 'out of balance' by having Stokes playing as a batsman only, we need to regroup so:
Crawley
Duckett
Ali
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Foakes
Woakes
Wood
Tongue
Broad
This team bats down to nine. Two Swing, Two Seam, & extreme pace bowlers here, Moeen as the spinner and Joe Root as back up. A good sharp Old Trafford (where it always rains) green-top pitch and away we go!
Goodbye Jimmy Anderson
(no sentimental swang-song farewell) and drop Robinson, who's lost pace, as well as endeavour.
I like the look of your team! Regarding Devon Correction, sir. Devon played Tests from '89 to '97. Gordon's last Test was in '91, Desmond's in '94. Just checked – the occasion I had in mind was 24 Feb to 1st March 1990 at Kingston (which England won by 9 wickets) – Devon took 5 in the match and second innings scorecard reads Haynes, bowled Malcolm 14 - It must have been highlights on TV, but no mistake - a very fast full toss hit leg stump. Devon, to my mind was like the little girl with the curl - he was very good at times, and pretty ordinary at others. There was, to mind, an unnecessarily cruel comment about him once - can't remember which tour it was, but the party had been announced, and one of the Telegraph writers gave a pen portrait of each player. Of Devon he wrote 'on his day, probably the fastest bowler in the world. Unfortunately, his day doesn't come round very often'
Whilst waiting for the washing machine to finish, I had a look at Mike Denness' record against the Aussies. It wasn't as bad as memory tried to claim - to average 29.90 against that lot wasn't too shabby, although it was skewed by his 188 in the fifth Test, which England one by an innings and 4 runs. Thommo missed that test, pretty sure from injury, but Lillee and Walker were there. I'd forgotten that it was his appointment as captain that led to the Boycott sulk - and I was shocked to realise that it is ten years since he died
unchanged squad announced - so Bairstow keeps the gloves which I reckon to be a mistake - he's missed at least four regulation catches and two stumpings - just not good enough at this level. Hopefully, the fact that he is in the squad means that Wood is fit
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 12, 2023, 06:13:32 AMunchanged squad announced - so Bairstow keeps the gloves which I reckon to be a mistake - he's missed at least four regulation catches and two stumpings - just not good enough at this level. Hopefully, the fact that he is in the squad means that Wood is fit
They must have Rishi Sunak as an adviser, you know the 'what can we do today to become more unpopular' reasoning. If they play Anderson I won't bother to watch.
must say I am not impressed. There was an intersting article by Michael Vaughan saying he understood the decision - that Bairstow's batting, and especially his strike rate, compensated for his lapses with the gloves, and that he had the same dilemma between Geraint Thomas and Chris Read. Well, I still think that they are wrong. All the matches have been pretty close and glove lapses aren't helpful
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 18, 2023, 05:09:35 PMmust say I am not impressed. There was an intersting article by Michael Vaughan saying he understood the decision - that Bairstow's batting, and especially his strike rate, compensated for his lapses with the gloves, and that he had the same dilemma between Geraint Thomas and Chris Read. Well, I still think that they are wrong. All the matches have been pretty close and glove lapses aren't helpful
A perfect explanation Mike, its all about JB, not wanting to go 3. I think at present Foakes, the world's best keeper is also better batting choice too and keep Moeen (a superb and unselfish team player) at number 3.
My pal over here
(who actually did all this for a living) convinces me that Jimmy is a much better bet than Robinson - even as a 'stock' bowler. Also if it clouds over at his home ground, a real handful still, even post 40 years of age.
I believe that Robinson is still an injury doubt anyway - but Jimmy's figures in his two tests are 3-226, average 72.33 - hardly inspiring
Anderson has been unlucky with the catching support, and his runs per over has put the Australian team under pressure.
fair point - and the last time I dared to say that he was past it - a couple of years ago - he promptly took a fifer in the very next innings
Switching channels between the cricket and the golf, enjoying the golf more because there seems to be more skill and finesse involved.
Crash ,bang wallop batting and short pitch bowling is not proper cricket.
well, Bairstow took a brilliant catch yesterday, but one swallow......
SITTING HERE PINCHING MYSELF - England have taken the lead with 8 wickets still in hand - mind you, apparently the weather forecast isn't good
I've been watching with my OH, great stuff!
Yes. England have performed absolutely brilliantly today.
Well ahead already, with plenty of wickets in hand.
I said to Marge just now, as the programme came to an end, I sincerely hope our stupid captain doesn't declare again too soon just as he did on the very first match at Edgbaston.
If we can just keep it up, we can make it 2-2.
Then at The Oval, if we don't lose our skills today, we could actually win the Ashes after being 2-0 down.
edge of the seat stuff - but the weather forecast is a worry. Like you - I think that day ine declaration was a big mistake and effectively left England playing catch up
oh sod it! The weather has the last word, so Australia retain the Ashes, even if England win at the Oval. The guys must be totally gutted - Australia were there for the taking
Very disappointing for England.
Very :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
(I can hear Veronica saying it's only a game)
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 11, 2023, 05:25:51 AMI like the look of your team! Regarding Devon Correction, sir. Devon played Tests from '89 to '97. Gordon's last Test was in '91, Desmond's in '94. Just checked – the occasion I had in mind was 24 Feb to 1st March 1990 at Kingston (which England won by 9 wickets) – Devon took 5 in the match and second innings scorecard reads Haynes, bowled Malcolm 14 - It must have been highlights on TV, but no mistake - a very fast full toss hit leg stump. Devon, to my mind was like the little girl with the curl - he was very good at times, and pretty ordinary at others. There was, to mind, an unnecessarily cruel comment about him once - can't remember which tour it was, but the party had been announced, and one of the Telegraph writers gave a pen portrait of each player. Of Devon he wrote 'on his day, probably the fastest bowler in the world. Unfortunately, his day doesn't come round very often'
Sorry Mike, of course your completely correct. For some reason I have always confused Desmond Haynes with Conrad Hunt and Gordon Greenidge with Roy Fredericks!
What a wonderful weigh up of Devon. Unfortunately I see he went for 37 a piece in Test cricket, bit like Moeen, too many four balls!
I've not been too well for the past week or so, otherwise I would have conceded my statistical sins earlier :worried: Perhaps we have to drop Old Trafford, it rains too much there. My friend said there's a saying that if you can see the Pennines from the dressing room balcony, its going to rain any moment, and if you can't it's already raining!
Shame it would have been a good finish, do hope the booing of the Aussie wicket keeper desists soon too!
I don't like what he did - but enough is enough - bygones and all that, Yes 37 is too many but when on song...
just found a clip of Dev's demolition of RSA on youtube. Firmly fixed in my mind that it was 9-59 - but in fact it was 9-57
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 24, 2023, 05:45:30 PMI don't like what he did - but enough is enough - bygones and all that, Yes 37 is too many but when on song...
Yes I would never have done it in my playing days and thankfully Ben confirmed he would have withdrawn the appeal. Somehow we are complicit with their past habit of sledging, in booing. Turn the other cheek and gain the moral higher ground of decency. I agree about Devon, enthralling and savage.
Woody is fast, but he's a slitherer, low slung and bowls nasty neck high bouncers from nowhere, bit like Larwood (from lots of footage on him). I believe through the air he's the fastest Englishman I've ever seen. Can you imagine him at one end and Larwood at the other - no thanks! That said I still reckon Larwood was even quicker and like Wood was a small man in comparison to the giants of today. Similar actions too, both very exciting to see I should imagine. My father said that Larwood (a Nottinghamshire miner), never seemed to tire and could reel 15 overs off at a time, ending as quick as he began. Beautiful side on action being the secret. Bradman said he was the fastest
(by a way) he ever faced.
Devon was explosive and so unpredictable, as you say great on his day Mike and a lovely chap to know too, which thanks to my pal I've had the honour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-PdXYbxi_s&ab_channel=ZCricket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-PdXYbxi_s&ab_channel=ZCricket)
I've seen quite a few clips of Larwood over the years, but that one was new to me - thanks.
I'm not happy. It was never mentioned in the highlights, but reading the paper apparently there could have been some play on Sunday. According to the report, the rain stopped a bit after twelve, so given time for mopping up there could have been play around 1300, but guess what? The umpires took everyone off for lunch - the full 40 minutes. Needless tp say by the time the noshing was over, the rain was back. TBH, I doubt England could have taken 5 wickets in the time available, but at least they could have had a go. THe article was very critical about the rigidity of Test timetabling, and also asked why Tests don't have a set aside day for such eventualities, but shock, horror to do that might impinge on the days available for the idiotic 100
Having seen the Australians' tactics in cricket - sandpapering the ball, knocking over stumps when the over has been completed, etc. - it is my belief that the Australians quietly did a rain dance last Friday to ensure no more play last weekend! 🙄😠
Probably got an abo witch doctor in the dressing room!
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 26, 2023, 12:28:26 PMProbably got an abo witch doctor in the dressing room!
Ooh! He said 'abo'. There'll be trouble!
see if I care - unrepentant right wing slob
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 26, 2023, 04:39:52 PMsee if I care - unrepentant right wing slob
No problem. I'm an unrepentant right wing person too, though not a slob!
oh dear! The Oval not going well. Can't see 283 being par for the course, but when Root, Stokes and Bairstow can only manage 12 runs between them, trouble looms. And Ali has picked up a groin strain and could hardly hobble,
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 28, 2023, 06:14:37 AMoh dear! The Oval not going well. Can't see 283 being par for the course, but when Root, Stokes and Bairstow can only manage 12 runs between them, trouble looms. And Ali has picked up a groin strain and could hardly hobble,
I can't say that I blame them if they feel it isn't worth it now.
Australia 2 - 1 up, and a draw due to rain.
Even if we won this last one it would be a 2 - 2 draw and Australia would retain the Ashes.
The Oval looks like Australia will make it 3 - 1 up anyway.
well, England have started like an express train, but have just lost a second wicket - so both openers gone with a lead of 128 runs - time for Root, with some failures behind him, to come to the aid of the party - ditto Stokes - good leadership decision to come at three in the absence of Ali - but he has to make it work
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 29, 2023, 01:56:35 PMwell, England have started like an express train, but have just lost a second wicket - so both openers gone with a lead of 128 runs - time for Root, with some failures behind him, to come to the aid of the party - ditto Stokes - good leadership decision to come at three in the absence of Ali - but he has to make it work
I haven't been watching the Oval test, as I know we've no chance of regaining the Ashes.
On the other hand, a draw would be better than losing 3 - 1.
quite agree - and we have a good chance - 377 ahead and two days left - haven't checked the forecast but surely we can't get a repetition of Manchester. With Broad and Anderson at the wicket I would declare rather than risk injury to either - we are already a bowler down with Ali injured
Well, thankfully Ali is able to bowl BUT unless the weather has the last say, this is reminding me horribly of Lords June/July 1984. Gower declared on 300/9, leaving the West Indies all day to score 342 runs. Giving that they had been bowled out in their first innings for 245, everyone anticipated an England victory – but nobody seems to have told the Windies. They knocked off the runs for the loss of just one wicket – and that was to a runout!
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 31, 2023, 08:22:12 AMWell, thankfully Ali is able to bowl BUT unless the weather has the last say, this is reminding me horribly of Lords June/July 1984. Gower declared on 300/9, leaving the West Indies all day to score 342 runs. Giving that they had been bowled out in their first innings for 245, everyone anticipated an England victory – but nobody seems to have told the Windies. They knocked off the runs for the loss of just one wicket – and that was to a runout!
Similar to the big mistake at Edgbaston earlier, on the first day, when our captain decided to declare earlier than he should.
That opened the way for Australia to take advantage and build up more than enough runs to win the match.
What a mistake-a-to-make.
England, despite the best efforts of the weather, win by 49 runs to square the series 2-2 and Broad takes the final two wickets - so his final flourish with the bat was a six, and his final flourish with the ball was to take the final two wickets and win the match for England - Fairy tale!
Sadly it will be a justification of the madness of bazball or 20/20 over five days.
I loved the game more when skills were more important, watching Gary Sobers , Barry Richards and Basil D'Olivera .
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 31, 2023, 06:30:23 PMEngland, despite the best efforts of the weather, win by 49 runs to square the series 2-2 and Broad takes the final two wickets - so his final flourish with the bat was a six, and his final flourish with the ball was to take the final two wickets and win the match for England - Fairy tale!
Well, I suppose that as we have finally won another match I should encourage Marge to watch it this evening.
The rather annoying thing is that, had it not been for the rain, we could also have beaten them at Old Trafford and taken the Ashes.
Yeah - talk about we wuz robbed! It would have been only the second time in the history of the Ashes that a side lost the first two games and won the remaining three - the other occasion was 1936/7 when Australia had Bradman in the side.
Awestruck by Wood's dismissal of Labuschagne- effectively an 88 mph legbreak!
Quote from: Michael Rolls on July 31, 2023, 07:45:45 PMYeah - talk about we wuz robbed! It would have been only the second time in the history of the Ashes that a side lost the first two games and won the remaining three - the other occasion was 1936/7 when Australia had Bradman in the side.
Awestruck by Wood's dismissal of Labuschagne- effectively an 88 mph legbreak!
Yes. Just watched it. Marge thought that we'd win by the Aussies running out of overs, but we actually got them all out by a comfortable margin.
still euphoric - and frustrated by the Manchester weather - if ever there was an 'if only'!
We know that Stuart Broad has now retired, but I wonder if we will see Jimmy Anderson again? This must surely be his least successful series. He played in four matches and his figures are pretty dire:-
154 overs, of which 37 were maidens, in the course of which he took just 4 wickets at an eye-watering 85.4. He was pretty economic, conceding just 2.77 runs an over in a series were runs flowed pretty consistently – other than Australia's batting on their first innings at the Oval.
I wrote off Jimmy a couple of years ago – and he promptly took a fifer in the very next innings – but at 41 years of age, perhaps the curtain is coming down
Oh, and Jimmy's strike rate (compared to a career average of 56.8) was 184.5 - the sort of return one might expect from a part-timer called upon now and then to give a tiring attack a few overs of rest. I do hope that I am wrong - he has been one of England's greatest stalwarts with the ball for an incredibly long time - but none of us can overcome anno domini
just realised that my figures for Jimmy for average, etc., were correct but contained a typo which I missed - 5 wickets, not 4.
Quote from: Michael Rolls on August 01, 2023, 12:11:11 PMOh, and Jimmy's strike rate (compared to a career average of 56.8) was 184.5 - the sort of return one might expect from a part-timer called upon now and then to give a tiring attack a few overs of rest. I do hope that I am wrong - he has been one of England's greatest stalwarts with the ball for an incredibly long time - but none of us can overcome anno domini
We think his groin strain has prevented him swinging the ball Mike, the one he straightens back in wasn't there at all this series. He might get it back, there's a long break now till India in January. I hope he recovers, but at 41 it's really time to depart I think. Tongue, Wood Woakes and Saqib Mahmood would be a good choice. The latter has a slingy rapid arm action, hits the bat hard and reverse swings with the older ball. Jamie Overton too, up to 90mph, tremendous sustainability and don't forget he averages 73 in tests with the bat! Stress injury ruled mim out this season, but he's recovered well apparently.
yes - we do have alternatives - and in India higher pace would be helpful(although in his two Tests there, Waqar Younis only took 2 wickets!)
I think its the place where quick bowlers go to die. I played in India once and that could be heartbreaking for 85mph seamers too. The ball sometimes would only come up 9" off the pitch and many of us were out to 'grubbers'.
I remember that FST never went there - don't blame him! Incidentally - the ECB set a b=new record by shoehorning five tests into 45 days - no wonder the seamers were on their uppers - at the end of the Oval test, Stokes said Mark Wood could hardly walk!
Quote from: Michael Rolls on August 03, 2023, 04:13:52 AMI remember that FST never went there - don't blame him! Incidentally - the ECB set a b=new record by shoehorning five tests into 45 days - no wonder the seamers were on their uppers - at the end of the Oval test, Stokes said Mark Wood could hardly walk!
Ridiculous unsustainable, ill conceived statistics. How well it worked 60 years ago, 5 summer long tests the tourists playing the counties so they could revolve their squads etc. Nowadays like everything today, no consideration for the players bodies.
Example England in (Australia) 1961
Arrived by boat to Tilbury April 15th
Ist Test Edgbaston played 8th June, 2nd Test Lords June 22nd, 3rd Test July 6th Headingley, 4thTest July Old Trafford, 5th & final test Test and tour match The Oval 16th August. In between they played the MCC and 8 of the counties (3 day fixtures). This year 2023 for England 6 tests in as many weeks. Australia (India) at Lords the same. Plus 3 0ne day and 3 T20 games to boot. 35 days of matches in 7 weeks - crazy!
My father knew both Richie Benaud and Alan Davidson well, from his work and they loved the trip to 'the old country'.. restful cruise to get here and bond as a team, a full but unrushed programme with plenty of time for sight seeing and golf. Memories of me as a 15 year old in '61, playing Richie and Davo, huge men in great big green V necked sweaters in our net at home. I wanted England to win, but with 'uncles' Richie and Alan taking all the wickets! Dear days
lovely memories! If I remember correctly, one of the first games used to be against Lavina, Duchess of Norfolk's XI.
Idling time whilst my cleaning lady was doing her stuff, I compared the bowling figures in the Ashes for Mooen Ali and Joe Root and was rather surprised.
Root. 53.1 overs, 8 maidens, 167 runs, 6 wickets, average 27.83 strike rate 53.17
Ali 122-15-463-9- 57.44-81.33
In fact, Root's average is, by a tiny fraction, better than Broad's!
Oh, and Root was even more economic - 3.14 against 3.80.
Hadn't realised until watching the replay that Wood's 94.6mph dismissal of Khawaja was a full toss! Reminiscent of Malcom-Haynes!
Some interesting tit-bits from the series. Firstly, Jimmy is saved the embarrassment of having the worst return of any bowler in the series – that 'honour' goes to Mark Boland, whose five wickets in two games cost 115.50 each. Strange for a bowler who, if memory serves aright, was pretty effective last time and seemed well suited to English conditions. If one ignores Smith and Labuschagne, who bowled one over each, costing respectively 1 and 3 runs, every Australian bowler conceded more than 4 an over, whereas every England bowler conceded less than 4.
How much did Australia miss Lyon? Unable to bowl in the second innings of the second Test, up to then he had taken 9 wickets at 29.44, with a strike rate of 44.00 , whereas Moen Ali, his opposite number, also took 9 wickets, but in four matches rather than one and a half and at a cost of 51.44 per wicket and a strike rate of 81.33. To be fair, Lyon's replacement, Murphy did pretty well – in two matches 7 wickets at 25.86 and the best strike rate of anyone on either side – 32.86.
Would the first two Tests have been lost had Wood and Wokes been playing? They certainly revitalized England's attack from the third Test on, taking 16 at 17.94 and 18 at 19.17, with strike rates of 33.25 and 37.78 respectively – the only bowlers on either side to average under 20. Wood's comparative frailty is well known – but might it not have been better to start with the aggression he can offer rather than waiting until two defeats have been suffered?
Still, a fascinating series – and if only it hadn't rained at Manchester....
Quote from: Michael Rolls on August 05, 2023, 06:54:01 AMSome interesting tit-bits from the series. Firstly, Jimmy is saved the embarrassment of having the worst return of any bowler in the series – that 'honour' goes to Mark Boland, whose five wickets in two games cost 115.50 each. Strange for a bowler who, if memory serves aright, was pretty effective last time and seemed well suited to English conditions. If one ignores Smith and Labuschagne, who bowled one over each, costing respectively 1 and 3 runs, every Australian bowler conceded more than 4 an over, whereas every England bowler conceded less than 4.
How much did Australia miss Lyon? Unable to bowl in the second innings of the second Test, up to then he had taken 9 wickets at 29.44, with a strike rate of 44.00 , whereas Moen Ali, his opposite number, also took 9 wickets, but in four matches rather than one and a half and at a cost of 51.44 per wicket and a strike rate of 81.33. To be fair, Lyon's replacement, Murphy did pretty well – in two matches 7 wickets at 25.86 and the best strike rate of anyone on either side – 32.86.
Would the first two Tests have been lost had Wood and Wokes been playing? They certainly revitalized England's attack from the third Test on, taking 16 at 17.94 and 18 at 19.17, with strike rates of 33.25 and 37.78 respectively – the only bowlers on either side to average under 20. Wood's comparative frailty is well known – but might it not have been better to start with the aggression he can offer rather than waiting until two defeats have been suffered?
Still, a fascinating series – and if only it hadn't rained at Manchester....
Wonderful research Mike. Wood and Woakes were magnificent we both thought here, as was Josh Tonge to a lesser but from a poorly supported position. We should have won 4 / 1 had Manchester (a winning draw) concluded. That said well played the Aussies, without the best off spinner in the world for the last 2 and a bit Tests. I n my opinion after that event the definite under-dogs. As you say fascinating overall and a supreme effort by all concerned, in light of ridiculous physical and mental demands, shame on the ECB. I think I'd not bother with a specialist slow bowler if Joe is happy to be our "go to" spinner. First time I saw him bowl I remarked to my pal that he was good. He gets real revs on the ball and doesn't bowl the guaranteed 4 ball that Moeen offered for want of experimentation every over almost.
Pat Pocock,
(lovely. lovely man) who could turn it square was similar. 5 dots and then a 'try one of these ball'! He has hands like buckets and I once umpired him in a 'Taverners' game and he literally made it hum. My friend says Phil Edmonds was the same and like Joe can bowl you a 75mph bouncer off 4 paces with very little change in action.
Either would walk into this side today and what price for 'Deadly' Derek Underwood!
What a super game it is!
can't remember what game it was, but I do remember Phil being called for a bouncer!
apologies - I didn't notice a typo in Boland's figures - he took three wickets, not five
Quote from: Michael Rolls on August 06, 2023, 05:59:36 AMcan't remember what game it was, but I do remember Phil being called for a bouncer!
Yes my pal captained him on a tour once and said some umpires, in his opinion very unfairly called him for 'pinging' his bouncer. David Lloyd (Bumble) who was very fussy about such things following the mauling he got from Lilley and Thompson, was always very reticent when facing Phil!
I vaguely remember Phil saying something about having action problems due to practicing indoors with a low ceiling